It's NOT Just A Message Board
This is proof that 2peas is not just a message board to some. Sad, sad, sad.
posted by 2 peas in my ass @ 10:09 PM
94 comments
2 Peas In My Ass
Daily Summaries And Opinions On One Of The Wackiest Communities On The Net
94 Comments:
You got that right. What a freak.
I was hoping you'd see that thread! You never disappoint. lol
Another one: MeghanR
If she posts about trying to have that baby one more time, I am going to scream. She bugs the hell out of me. How can her husband stand her?
It is called having friends...try it sometime.
Anonymous said...
It is called having friends...try it sometime.
-I do have friends. Only they are people I actualy know and see and talk to over coffee. They aren't screens.
A lot of Peas know each other in real life. I have met and know and socialize with at least 30.
Friends, look it up.
Do people ever ask themselves what they're lacking in their own lives that they devote so much time to a message board?
Do people ever ask themselves how much their investing in the board to be so bitter about so many people on that board?
It's sad to see so many women with families spending so much time online.
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves what they're lacking in their own lives that they devote so much time to a message board?
11:03 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves how much their investing in the board to be so bitter about so many people on that board?
11:03 PM
_______________________________
LMAO...good one.
Most women on that board are depressed. That's why they spend so much time escaping in cyberland. I guess a computer addiction is better than drugs or booze.
Online friends? Maybe, maybe not.
Thousands of strangers? Definately.
Do people ever ask themselves how much their investing in the board to be so bitter about so many people on that board?
11:03 PM
--------------------------------
No kidding!
"most women on that board are depressed"????
Where do you get that from?
Methinks you all protest too much.
The repeated comments about all the time Peas spend, all the (in your opinions, fake) friendships and connections on 2P's are obviously coming from jealousy.
Did you post and get ignored? It happens. It's okay. Just jump back in, instead of badmouthing the place and all the P's over here.
Then maybe you all can be a part of what you are so obviously jealous of. It isn't a secret clique. C'mon...you know you want to. You are already reading, so go on and post. Maybe you too can have fun on the internet rather than the tiresome virtual floggings over here.
She is so freaking annoying
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional.
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional
My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs.
"
My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
Which would make her about a 14.
Yes, and she is fat. Any average height woman who is a size 14 is too fat.
I'm about a 14 and I agree, too fat. 10/12 would be healthier.
Annabella is totally fat. If she thinks she's not, she's delusional.
"The repeated comments about all the time Peas spend, all the (in your opinions, fake) friendships and connections on 2P's are obviously coming from jealousy."
You think I am jealous? Get a life nut! What is there to be jealous of, please explain? Friends aren't people who you chat with online. Friends are people you invest incredible amounts of time and energy into. Friends are people that you know, not someone you are hoping is who she says she is there behind her screen. A friend is a tangible person. You might make connections here at 2 Peas but very very very real friendships. I think some people need to evaluate how much time they really spend online as compared to how much time they invest into their real lives. Ask themselves how many close personal relationships they have right there were they are. The online addicition or online lives many of the Peas have is actually quite unhealthy. Sort of like an imaginary playland filled with imaginary friends.
Jealousy? Clearly not!
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional.
*snort* I was thinking the same thing.
I think someone is jealous that weren't able to be part of the wonderful, caring, supportive community of women at 2peas so they have to resort to THIS. I feel so sorry for the blogger. Insert sad face here.
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional.
Add me to the list that thinks she is at least a size 14. Then again.....did you see the pics from her birthday party (that she charged people money to come to) Maybe she can get away wearing a size smaller than 14 did you see the way she was poured into her clothes. She was almost hanging out at the top. Bwhahahaha
Annabelle probably pays her friends to tell her she's not fat-perhaps birthday party money?
I think I would rather be addicted to booze, at least it's something real and not a group of phoneys pretending to care about your feeling and your pathetic life! You know you need a life when you can't make the drive from the hospital to home without checking your messages, sad.
A little irony here...you are complaining that this woman is taking a mb too seriously, yet here you are posting on a blog time after time that makes fun of and complains about the women on the mb that takes up too much of THEIR time. I mean really, before you hurl insults at me, stop and think about it for a minute. If you are here complaining about THEM, then you are being a huge ass hypocrite because you are taking plenty of your precious time to read their threads, come over here, read all of the comments, analyze the situation yourself, and then post your rude comments. And you can't tell me that you don't come back time after time to see if anyone responded-I do it and so do you. Sorry to be bitchy, but it's pretty darn plain and simple
Anonymous said...
A little irony here...you are complaining that this woman is taking a mb too seriously, yet here you are posting on a blog time after time that makes fun of and complains about the women on the mb that takes up too much of THEIR time. I mean really, before you hurl insults at me, stop and think about it for a minute. If you are here complaining about THEM, then you are being a huge ass hypocrite because you are taking plenty of your precious time to read their threads, come over here, read all of the comments, analyze the situation yourself, and then post your rude comments. And you can't tell me that you don't come back time after time to see if anyone responded-I do it and so do you. Sorry to be bitchy, but it's pretty darn plain and simple
-Last time I said something similar, because it seem to be the same complaint from the blogger over and over like a broken record, I got my hand slapped and ass spanked. I still think it's true, though. Well said.
"Most women on that board are depressed. That's why they spend so much time escaping in cyberland. I guess a computer addiction is better than drugs or booze. "
Yes that's true. Since they don't have friends, the board is their only adult conversation.
bekalab - you're so transparent.
Anonymous said...
bekalab - you're so transparent.
8:35 AM
Who are you accusing of being bekalab?
All of the anons posting here, I wonder how many of these threads you post on just so know one realizes you come here to bash them behind their back?
You can admit here, ya know. Since it's anon, know one will know it's you.
I don't. I am just a lurker who rarely posts.
Will someone please tell Paigepea about this blog? She probably missed all the threads about it since she was on vacation. She needs to see what's being said over here.
"All of the anons posting here, I wonder how many of these threads you post on just so know one realizes you come here to bash them behind their back?"
I don't, but Ashley Nicole did. Then after her name was said over here repeatedly, then all of a sudden oblio was being accused of being the blog owner when he doesn't fit the profile of the blog owner at all.
I am not kidding, PaigePea acts like the only freaking mom in the world. For someone who is married to a doctor she sure does rely on the MB as her support. Constantly bitching about her peanut when she was pregnant and the help she would or would not have. Now she wont stop bitching about her daughter and her oozing nips. Give me a break. Ask a question, get some advice, get a fucking clue but do not hound us weekly with this crap.
I bet her doctor husband is sick of her. She really needs to up those pills.
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
AnnieBelle is Aunt Jamima on crack.
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
Anonymous said...
"All of the anons posting here, I wonder how many of these threads you post on just so know one realizes you come here to bash them behind their back?"
I don't, but Ashley Nicole did. Then after her name was said over here repeatedly, then all of a sudden oblio was being accused of being the blog owner when he doesn't fit the profile of the blog owner at all.
8:42 AM
I think I need further explantion or a clearer one. lol
The mud is in the way.
Anonymous said...
AnnieBelle is Aunt Jamima on crack.
8:48 AM
No she is not! She looks like howdy doody! Look up his pitcure on google and compare. It's worth it!
13.95
_________________________
HILARIOUS!!!!
I do agree to a point about the amount of time being spent on a message board when you have family that is wanting your attention. I think that is a valid point, and one that if Peas disagree with, they are lying. Depression is not as much part of it, as denying themselves adult conversation for the sake of saying "I going to be a SAHM" and then spend half the day on the computer? But I guess it sounds good in their head. One less reason for working Mom's to feel guilty, just remember half of the SAHM's are staring at a computer screen instead of their kids.
Anonymous said...
I do agree to a point about the amount of time being spent on a message board when you have family that is wanting your attention. I think that is a valid point, and one that if Peas disagree with, they are lying. Depression is not as much part of it, as denying themselves adult conversation for the sake of saying "I going to be a SAHM" and then spend half the day on the computer? But I guess it sounds good in their head. One less reason for working Mom's to feel guilty, just remember half of the SAHM's are staring at a computer screen instead of their kids.
9:09 AM
This is a great point. I find it amusing (and I am a SAHM) that some SAHM's are all high and mighty and thing WOHM are horrible for not raising their children (I don't agree with that) when they spend all damn day on the computer.
I know there are a hell of alot of peas children that would be much better off and get much more attention being in daycare.
I just find it ironic. They bash others, but seem to spend no time parenting their own children.
I mean being at home does not make you a great mom. Spending time with and teaching your kids makes you a great mom. That has nothing to do with spending hours on two peas.
ITA, and quite frankly felt myself slipping and sliding into the "vortex" of 2peas. I'm also a SAHM, and when my son was bringing things to me at the computer, and sitting down by the computer to spend time with me, I knew there was a big UH OH going on. I don't think most of these women admit to this, but they are ready willing and able to bash other parenting.
This is a great point. I find it amusing (and I am a SAHM) that some SAHM's are all high and mighty and thing WOHM are horrible for not raising their children (I don't agree with that) when they spend all damn day on the computer.
*********************************
A-fucking-men
"My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
"Which would make her about a 14."
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
Let's bash the Catholics now. . .
Catholic Teacher fired for IVF?!?
WTF its okay for their priests to molest little children and screw them up for life while they protect them from the law but they fire teachers who try to get pregnant with IVF.
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
Oh pullllease! I have big boobs too. What I think is sick is the way she lets them hang out.
"My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
"Which would make her about a 14."
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
10:06 AM
Well now, dumbass, it depends on how tall you are. Annabella is 5'6. That would make her fat.
Hilary's intelligence is showing again. I'm Annabella's height with big boobs and at 175 I'm a 14. I haven't been size 10 since I weighed about 130-140.
Well now that you've posted a picture of Howdy Doody, Annabella, I really can see the resemblence. LOL.
I'm sorry but Annabella doesn't look like a size 14. She looks MUCH BIGGER. She's a fat ass. And ugly as hell.
Hillary said...
"My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
"Which would make her about a 14."
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
10:06 AM
Did you factor in height? How tall are you?
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PeaPoster
~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:11:01 AM
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Just wondering.
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charlottesweb93
AncestralPea
PeaNut 92142 - 6/22/2003
Posts: 4706 Layouts: 39
Loc: Independence, Mo
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:12:21 AM
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According to Meg Cabot..Size 12 is Not Fat.
Just a little bibliophile humor.
A lot factors into size 14 being fat. Like height, for one.
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TerriG
PeaFixture
PeaNut 28363 - 1/26/2002
Posts: 3156 Layouts: 28
Loc: Up to my eyeballs...
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:12:35 AM
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Marilyn Monroe was a size 14.
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ginacivey
♣♣♣♣♣♣♣
PeaNut 32477 - 3/14/2002
Posts: 11503 Layouts: 32
Loc: end of tornado alley
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:12:54 AM
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what makes you ask
when i was a 14 i considered myself too heavy...and probably called myself 'fat'
i think it just depends on a number of circumstances....
do you consider it fat?
gina
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Skybar
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 188727 - 1/31/2005
Posts: 5399 Layouts: 0
Loc: AZ desert
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:13:20 AM
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uhmmmm, well, not really. (that's about what I am....12-14)
depends on how tall you are?
could be worse....
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ANIPC
AncestralPea
PeaNut 16929 - 6/14/2001
Posts: 4718 Layouts: 27
Loc: My heart is in Texas but my Soul is in Philly.
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:13:50 AM
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It depends if your short or tall ...
that's one thing to consider...
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heartcat
Mrs. Pea Guilfoyle
PeaNut 51429 - 10/7/2002
Posts: 18954 Layouts: 115
Loc: Vegas, Baby!
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:14:13 AM
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It depends on a person's height and general body shape, I think.
If someone is 5' tall, and very small boned, for 'her' to wear a size 14 might mean she is overweight.
For someone who is 5'9", with a larger build, broad shoulders and hips, etc. but not overweight, then a size 14 might be just right, and even too small in some cases.
And 'hi' Marty, it's good to see you!
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Kelly340
PeaAddict
PeaNut 84687 - 5/4/2003
Posts: 1780 Layouts: 0
Loc: Maritimes
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:14:46 AM
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I believe 14 is the beginning of the "plus" sizes. Lots of stores don't carry over a 12, so uh, I guess.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5913 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:08 AM
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i'm a size 12, but i'm only 5 feet tall. i definitely need to lose some weight around the middle... although, i do have a killer rack. lol
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OhSmellyCat
BucketHead
PeaNut 235294 - 12/8/2005
Posts: 731 Layouts: 2
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:21 AM
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On me it is not fat but when I was super underweight I wore a 10. I would be very happy to wear a 14 again.
I am tall and big boned.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:48 AM
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Well, that's what size I am right now.
Granted, i had a baby 5 months ago, but yes, itis a bit heavier than I would like to be only because I'm a shorty.
I"m just kinda interested in what other people consider fat.
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sandikal
Henny Button--English Lit Major
PeaNut 67765 - 2/7/2003
Posts: 18931 Layouts: 83
Loc: Fountain Valley, CA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:57 AM
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Fat is determined in a lot of ways, the least of which is clothing size.
This tool will help tell you if you are fat:
Dr. Koop Ideal Body Weight Calculator
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charlottesweb93
AncestralPea
PeaNut 92142 - 6/22/2003
Posts: 4706 Layouts: 39
Loc: Independence, Mo
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:16:27 AM
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I believe 14 is the beginning of the "plus" sizes. Lots of stores don't carry over a 12, so uh, I guess.
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Not the stores I shop. Size 16 is where they stop.
14W is the start of plus sizes.
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m2b
PeaAddict
PeaNut 226741 - 10/11/2005
Posts: 1209 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:16:31 AM
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It depends on how tall you are
I am 5' 2" and when I was growing in to a size 8 the weight I was at at that time was considered "overweight" on the chart at the doctors office.
I knew I wasn't as small as I had used to be but I didn't consider myself overweight.
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KatieMoore
Will I ever get to Buckethead?!
PeaNut 256329 - 4/5/2006
Posts: 409 Layouts: 3
Loc: Southeast MI
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:16:31 AM
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unless your doctor says so, then I don't think so.
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AngelKriC
PeaAddict
PeaNut 215522 - 7/21/2005
Posts: 1964 Layouts: 3
Loc: Franklin, NC
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:17:06 AM
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I think it also depends on heighth and body build....
/hijack Are you the 2Peas MySpace Group person? LOL I put in a request about a week or so ago, and haven't heard back, are you not accepting new members? I can give you my myspace space LOL. Thanks! /end hijack
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rebekahjg
BucketHead
PeaNut 225625 - 10/3/2005
Posts: 567 Layouts: 17
Loc: ne oh
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:18:11 AM
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i do have a killer rack. lol
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lol..me too Heather! I think that's why I've been so hesitant to lose weight.. my girls have gotten HUGE!!
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Eeyorefanatic
PeaAddict
PeaNut 41481 - 6/28/2002
Posts: 1908 Layouts: 47
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:18:21 AM
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I think it is the biggest sixe not to be considered plus size by most stores.
However a 14 looks very different on different builds. When I wear a 14 people think Im a 10-12 (Im 5'9"
and while marilyn monroe wore a size 14, by todays sizing that would be an 8/10.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:18:45 AM
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Hi, Cathy!!!
Heather-
Yes, i do have a killer rack, but I think part of that is because I'm breastfeeding.
And whoever said you lose weight while breastfeeding was lying.
Krissy-
Yes, I am the Moderator for the MySpace group.
Check again, I accept new people like every day. It just takes me awhile, sometimes. If not, try again and I'll check it later.
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ScrapsCdn
BucketHead
PeaNut 147998 - 5/20/2004
Posts: 599 Layouts: 16
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:19:22 AM
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I'm 5'10, and in a 12 right now. I'm feeling a little large and would seriously be bummed if I was in a 14.
I like a 10, an 8 is getting tooo skinny for my height.
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hiccupp
I C-U-Pea-Pea
PeaNut 99958 - 8/5/2003
Posts: 5864 Layouts: 52
Loc: Illinois
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:20:29 AM
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well...for me its too big. I FEEL fat
I'm right between a 12/14 depending on style/brand, and its too big for ME. I'm currently 5'2 and weigh 160 (groan) Part of my problem too, is that I carry a LOT of weight in my stomach. If I could just slice it off I'd be an EASY 12.
I *should* weigh 120-125, but I feel like that'd be too small for me (I am 'big boned', wide really, I'm just not a petite build even before I gained weight) I think 130 would be good. I'd be THRILLED with 125, but that seems SO far off right now
For me...a 8/10 would be good. 10/12 is my goal for now
But I have a friend who would look TERRIBLE at a 14, she'd be way too skinny. But she's taller.
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Marzbar71
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 73461 - 3/4/2003
Posts: 2154 Layouts: 15
Loc: Chicago, IL
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:20:29 AM
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I think alot depends on your frame.
But the Marilyn argument doesn't really fly. Size 14 back in 1955 is WAY different than size 14 today. Basically, all clothes used to be sized like wedding dresses. Most clothing industries started "vanity sizing" while the bridal industry stayed the same.
Here's a link to a size 12-14 woman who was given the chance to try on a Marilyn dress:
The Marilyn Myth
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ScrapsCdn
BucketHead
PeaNut 147998 - 5/20/2004
Posts: 599 Layouts: 16
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:21:04 AM
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And whoever said you lose weight while breastfeeding was lying.
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You do use more calories, but I believe that I read that a woman who is breastfeeding will hand on to some extra body weight until she stops. I think the figure was about 5 0 10 lbs.
Just a safety measure for your body, so it can protect the supply for the baby.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5913 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:23:05 AM
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If I could just slice it off I'd be an EASY 12.
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yes. me, too!
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*HuskerFaninIL*
Mommy of LMM-O-Pea
PeaNut 51325 - 10/6/2002
Posts: 8413 Layouts: 250
Loc: Husker fan in the Illini State
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:23:50 AM
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Sandikal, that is the only BMI calcualator that I have actually liked. I really like that it asks your frame size. I am big boned and will never weigh what a normal BMI index says I should (the ones that dont take into consideration your bones).
Thanks for posting that!
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KristinL16
PeaAddict
PeaNut 142870 - 4/20/2004
Posts: 1261 Layouts: 46
Loc: MN
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:25:07 AM
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For me it would be. I am short, and according to the link posted I should weigh between 102 and 112. That is where I was at with weight in college. While I would love to be there again, I don't think it is realistic, since I don't have the time to be as active as I was when I didn't have a car, was a waitress and a hotel housekeeper, and walked 40 minutes to and from class everyday. I currently am 125 and a size 4 or 6. I do have some weight to lose in the middle after my last baby, but mostly I need to tone up. According to the website I am overweight.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bugaboo49
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 25180 - 11/27/2001
Posts: 2490 Layouts: 3
Loc: Texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:27:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
depends, if you are 4'11, i would say yes. but if you are 5'10", no 1'm 5'3" and i wear 14. i'm fat (my own opinion). my sister in law is 5'10" and wears a 14 and is not...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:27:07 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sarah-
OMG, you sound EXACTLY like me.
I was my skinniest at 125. I wore a 4/6 depending on what brand it was. You could totally feel my bones, though.
I am not sure if I'll ever be back there, as I had to work my butt of to get there, but I would love to be a 6/8.
I was an 8/10 right before I got preggo.
I have told myself that I'm giving me 6 months to eat whateverand not work out.
Right at the 6 month mark, i'm digging out the treadmill and starting to watch what I eat.
I only have a few weeks left.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
huskerscrapper
Looser Liberal Lair
PeaNut 49249 - 9/16/2002
Posts: 29127 Layouts: 123
Loc: Husker Nation
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:32:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For me it is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kathybishop
PeaAddict
PeaNut 15394 - 5/14/2001
Posts: 1210 Layouts: 68
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:32:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was going to cite the ol Marilyn Monroe size - although I thought she was a size 16?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:34:31 AM
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Krissy-
I just checked members of the MS group, and you're there.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:36:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, I remember seeing a MM movie-was it how to marry a millionaire, perhaps??
And she was BIG!! But she still looked so good!! She had it all in the right places.
Me- I get it in my belly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mrs Potato Head
AncestralPea
PeaNut 143878 - 4/26/2004
Posts: 4062 Layouts: 21
Loc: Maryland
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:39:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends on the person - height, bone structure, etc. For me, at 5'3'' it's fat. And I can honestly say that cause it's the size I wear right now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mary Mary
Now accepting hate mail
PeaNut 140474 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 18162 Layouts: 2
Loc: The Palm Springs of WA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:43:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For me (5'5" and small bone structure) size 14 is overweight.
That being said, the first year after childbirth I'm lucky if I get into a 14. Don't stress too much about it. You'll have time to lose weight. Right now it's more important to focus on your little one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jungmama
BucketHead
PeaNut 203934 - 5/5/2005
Posts: 910 Layouts: 13
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:49:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am 5'1 and for me it is heavy. I wouldn't say "fat".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speattle
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 140392 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 5561 Layouts: 1
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:05:53 AM
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It is no secret on this board that I have been working hard (curves+WW) to shape up and slim down for DD's wedding in August.
I am 5-3 and was wearing a very tight 14 six months ago. (I had a few 16s in there too ) In my opinion, yes, I was fat. I weighed more then at any time of my life excluding my 3rd pregnancy 15 years ago (I had toxemia and blew up like a water balloon the last month). I hated pictures of myself and hated the clothes I had to wear. I have a kinda round face even when I am thin and it looked like a big old beach ball!
Again, it depends on your height and frame. Taller women can definitely carry more weight and bigger sizes. It is all a matter of proportion.
Size 14 on a 6 foot tall woman with a larger bone structure would look fine....on me it looks fat.
About the Dr.Koop weight guide thing. According to it I am 17 pounds over weight, yet according to WW I am only a few pounds into the "overweight classification".
I think that you have to remember that muscle weighs more than fat and is a lot more dense. A pound of lean muscle takes up a lot less space on a body than a pound of fat. I have definitely built up more muscle in the last 6 months, so even though I have only lost about 25 pounds, but because I am more toned and carrying more muscle, it looks like more. I'm not quite to where I want to be yet, but I sure feel and look a lot better now. If DD were getting married this weekend, I would be okay with how I look.
Plus the size 12 pants that I bought a few months ago, I have to hold them up with a BELT! (I'm waiting to see if I drop below a 10 before investing in more pants just now).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dynalady2000
PeaFixture
PeaNut 25620 - 12/7/2001
Posts: 3438 Layouts: 38
Loc: Sweet Home Chicago
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:11:33 AM
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I'm just barely 5' so for me size 14 would mean fat. I wear mostly size 2 now, some 4.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
scrappygirl2
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 56426 - 11/20/2002
Posts: 7656 Layouts: 0
Loc: Michigan
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:11:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am 5'5" and a size 14 for me would mean I need to lose some weight. I look and feel my best in a 10.
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supermom_ttf
~* Anti houseguest Pea *~
PeaNut 78320 - 3/28/2003
Posts: 12797 Layouts: 50
Loc: Wisconsin
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:14:21 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At 5'11" size 14 was my favorite size.
I felt the most comfortable in that size.
*sigh* oh to be that size again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:15:59 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speattle-
I haven't been on as much, so I didn't know about your WW.
I just wanted to say "congrats!" it sound like you're doing great!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PeanutBirdy
PeaAddict
PeaNut 87088 - 5/20/2003
Posts: 1496 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:16:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Meg Cabot..Size 12 is Not Fat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't wait to read that book!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speattle
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 140392 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 5561 Layouts: 1
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:22:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks Marty!
and congratulations on your NEW BABY!
I have 3 kids (all big now) and I breast fed them all. Kudos to you for nursing your little one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
eight
BucketHead
PeaNut 252264 - 3/8/2006
Posts: 565 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:27:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes
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LeighUTex
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 117889 - 11/29/2003
Posts: 2495 Layouts: 72
Loc: DFW
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:40:32 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm a 14 and I'm 5'11", I hope I'm not considered FAT, I would rather be a 10, but hey I'm down from a 16!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speattle
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 140392 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 5561 Layouts: 1
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:42:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think a 14 on a 5-11 frame sounds just right.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Annabella
start the 5 second delay now
PeaNut 43843 - 7/30/2002
Posts: 19316 Layouts: 42
Loc: East Coast
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:45:28 AM
I'm 5'6 and if I was a 14 I would call myself fat. Not there's anything wrong with being fat, but that's how I would label my body.
-Me too.
LOL I just finished reading that thread and came right here!
Um, we can actually read the board, no need to cut and paste the whole thing over here. Nice job making us scroll through that whole thing when we just read it.
Idiot.
Subject:
I will no longer open any vauge titled threads. Forum: NSBR Board
Posted:5/12/2006 11:26:59 AM
Post Posted by:
Darlin_Nikkiâ„¢
PeaPoster
Darlin_Nikkiâ„¢
Fake lesbian dressed in fishnets and a miniskirt.
PeaNut 230544 - 11/7/2005
Posts: 9866 Layouts: 0
Loc: Southern Gal
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:26:59 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some just take me surprise more than others.
Oh puhlease!! You won't open vague threads but you'll get on there and tell us all about sleeping with your daughters daddy who ummm definitely isn't a lesbian. Give me a break Nikki! I'd rather see the snakes with their heads cut off than hear about your bisexual episodes!!!
Click here to see the great things from NSD 2006!
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Subject:
Does your husband (boyfriend, sig. other) have an opinion about what you wear? Forum: NSBR Board
Posted:5/12/2006 8:22:45 AM
Post Posted by:
little-ducky
Return to Last List | Post Reply | Post New Topic
PeaPoster
little-ducky
just put it on my bill.
PeaNut 74090 - 3/7/2003
Posts: 6745 Layouts: 468
Loc: denver co
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:22:45 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been requested (told, admonished, warned) that green looks bad on me becaue I have olive skin. I love green, though! darn him, anyway. otherwise he doesn't say much. I get a lot more attention when I wear a tight shirt...
what about you? do you have a live-in clothing advisor? (and, more importantly, are they right most of the time?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
stefanieva
AncestralPea
PeaNut 100980 - 8/11/2003
Posts: 4245 Layouts: 168
Loc: Virginia
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:24:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope, he doesn't care what I wear. He doesn't like some of my shoes (Crocs mostly) but I do so I still wear them. As I don't like some of his shoes but he wears what he wants.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
m2b
PeaAddict
PeaNut 226741 - 10/11/2005
Posts: 1209 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:24:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No.
He never says anything about what I am wearing (in a negative way) He actually thinks I worry too much about it.
I am not sure how I would take it if he did that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
frogfan
AncestralPea
PeaNut 115033 - 11/8/2003
Posts: 4427 Layouts: 38
Loc: Where in the world is???
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:26:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
he said something negative once and it was about my favorite shirt. I told him how much he hurt my feelings and he hasn't done it again. (But then he stopped with the good comments as well, so I think I screwed myself over somehow...)
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LooLooScraps2
PeaNut
PeaNut 75536 - 3/13/2003
Posts: 147 Layouts: 14
Loc: Charleston, S.C.
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:26:16 AM
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LOL no! I see what my husband picks out for himself....I'm not about to let him choose what I wear. He likes when I wear skirts though. That's about as much fashion advice as I will take from him!
Lori
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Mrs Smarty Pants
PEAing Like R. Kelly
PeaNut 180865 - 12/13/2004
Posts: 10822 Layouts: 0
Loc: Brooklyn, NY/Now NJ
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:26:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He has certain 'styles' he prefers and will tell me so - but he doesn't really tell me anything negative - he'll just reenforce the positive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
grace*smom
PeaNut
PeaNut 190373 - 2/9/2005
Posts: 284 Layouts: 0
Loc: the 'dotte
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:27:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so knows better than to offer unsolicited neg. opinions hahahaha i have him trained.
actually so has very good taste so i ask him all the time of his opinion.
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joybugger
PeaAddict
PeaNut 44246 - 8/4/2002
Posts: 1618 Layouts: 78
Loc: Home of Garth Brooks
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:27:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My DH does have an opinion, and he is usually right. That is to say, if he likes something on me or helps me pick it out, I often get tons of compliments.
Exception is my peach suit. He hates the color, but I often get compliments on that one too.
He is very careful though, not to be too "honest" unless I have ASSURED him he won't hurt my feelings.
ETA: He usually only gives his opinion when ASKED. So that's good.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MissFrenchJessica
PeaAddict
PeaNut 210385 - 6/16/2005
Posts: 1886 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:29:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope. No matter what I wear, my dh tells me I look 'great' in. He's sweet, but he's not always honest with me. Sometimes I look at pictures of myself and wonder WHY would he let me go out looking like THAT!?! LOL!
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bear_mom
PeaAddict
PeaNut 142661 - 4/19/2004
Posts: 1006 Layouts: 3
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:29:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes he does. He is much like MSP's dh, he tells me what he likes on me, but rarely tells me when he doesn't.
He does go clothes shopping with me sometimes and if I try something on he doesn't like - he does tell me then. If I really like it, I will still get it though.
Emily
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MarshmallowKitty
That'll do Pea
PeaNut 51676 - 10/8/2002
Posts: 12922 Layouts: 24
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:30:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, he doesn't. He does have an opinion about the amount shopping I do!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JBSmom
PEAnuts and Crackerjacks
PeaNut 11438 - 2/23/2001
Posts: 10068 Layouts: 248
Loc: CA girl in the rain of WA
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:31:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my DH doesn't offer his opinon, good or bad.
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ScrapsCdn
BucketHead
PeaNut 147998 - 5/20/2004
Posts: 600 Layouts: 16
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:39:33 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We have given each other VETO power over clothing.
He's caught a few things on me that aren't so attractive, and said honey you need to change.
We also use it when doing our twice yearly closet cleanout. Things that either of us think we should still be able to wear and that just aren't working anymore get vetoed and tossed.
We are trying to make better clothing decisions and pruchases. We usually shop for clothes together as well, but he tires quickly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GrinningCat
Proudly Canadian
PeaNut 43061 - 7/19/2002
Posts: 20660 Layouts: 2
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:39:35 AM
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The only man who can tell me what to wear is my co-producer and we're picking wardrobe for a show. Anyone else, forget it, they have no right. And they usually have an ulterior motive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ScrapsCdn
BucketHead
PeaNut 147998 - 5/20/2004
Posts: 600 Layouts: 16
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:40:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And they usually have an ulterior motive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm curious! Could you explain that a little more?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KatieMoore
Will I ever get to Buckethead?!
PeaNut 256329 - 4/5/2006
Posts: 409 Layouts: 3
Loc: Southeast MI
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:49:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(and, more importantly, are they right most of the time?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dh only comments when I ask, and I only ask when I see the "oooh-that-looks-bad-but-I'm-keeping-my mouth-shut look"
and he is always right. I have a fashion handicap
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~AlbertaPea~
PeaAddict
PeaNut 71213 - 2/22/2003
Posts: 1114 Layouts: 0
Loc: Alberta,Canada
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:56:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wish! Nope, unless I ask, DH rarely comments on what I wear.
He however, asks me to pick out HIS clothes for him. I guess he trusts my judgement?!
Lynn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GrinningCat
Proudly Canadian
PeaNut 43061 - 7/19/2002
Posts: 20660 Layouts: 2
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:59:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And they usually have an ulterior motive.
-----------------------------------------------
I'm curious! Could you explain that a little more?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've found that people who tell you what to wear are generally trying to change you as a person, or that they are embarassed of who or what you are.
That is why the only opinion I take is my producer's opinion, as that is purely business and it's not me on camera...it's the persona.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cajuncandy
AncestralPea
PeaNut 182236 - 12/27/2004
Posts: 4186 Layouts: 4
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:59:38 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not unless I ask and then he is honest with me. The only item of clothing that I know he hates with a passion are those capri pants, he can't stand them.
Every year I try a pair or two and they always look goofy on me!
2nd part of the question, he's always right, just ask him. Seriously, he has better fashion sense than I do. Sad, but true.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5921 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:59:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gorgeouskid
PeaFixture
PeaNut 83119 - 4/25/2003
Posts: 3102 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 9:01:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never ever has he said anything about what I'm going to wear.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mackeysmom
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 102835 - 8/22/2003
Posts: 2736 Layouts: 2
Loc: in the land of almost right
Posted: 5/12/2006 9:02:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No. My DH could care less.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
batya
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 59094 - 12/20/2002
Posts: 2623 Layouts: 0
Loc: up on my high horse
Posted: 5/12/2006 9:02:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DH doesn't care. Even when I ask his opinion, it's always, "that's fine!" He really doesn't complain, ever. I guess I should be thankful.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AKathy
PeaAddict
PeaNut 45443 - 8/13/2002
Posts: 1053 Layouts: 92
Loc: Minot, North Dakota
Posted: 5/12/2006 9:03:26 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My DH never did. He did however tell me when he thought I was looking especially good. He always needed help choosing clothes though and in fact, I usually bought most of his clothes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
m2b
PeaAddict
PeaNut 226741 - 10/11/2005
Posts: 1209 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 9:06:39 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with grinning cat.
I have had friends who were in relationships where the bf would say something or buy clothes that are nothing like what my friend would where and also tell her she looks great with out make up etc.... It is/was all about control.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
joybugger
PeaAddict
PeaNut 44246 - 8/4/2002
Posts: 1618 Layouts: 78
Loc: Home of Garth Brooks
Posted: 5/12/2006 9:11:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've found that people who tell you what to wear are generally trying to change you as a person, or that they are embarassed of who or what you are.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see what you are saying, but I think it depends on how it's done. My DH, for example, would never TELL me what to wear unless I asked his opinion. He will HELP me though, when I ask. And if he picks out something for me I ALWAYS get compliments on it. He just has a really good eye for color and what looks good. I value his opinion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tracyarts
AncestralPea
PeaNut 44329 - 8/5/2002
Posts: 4782 Layouts: 29
Loc: Houston, TX
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:44:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really. I will get told sometimes: "You should wear that more often, you look really nice in it". Or "Why don't you wear that (fill in the blank with whatever garment he is talking about) more often because it looks really nice on you."
But that's about all the input I'm ever given regards to clothing choices.
Tracy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PeaingDiva
Stylishly Peaing
PeaNut 101187 - 8/12/2003
Posts: 16015 Layouts: 144
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:45:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really, he'll just say something looks nice or that he likes a certain color.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sandikal
Henny Button--English Lit Major
PeaNut 67765 - 2/7/2003
Posts: 18936 Layouts: 83
Loc: Fountain Valley, CA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:50:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
what about you? do you have a live-in clothing advisor? (and, more importantly, are they right most of the time?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My DH is a regular Clinton Kelly. For a while, he was actually stopping at the mall and buying me clothes. I had to tell him to stop. He kept buying black or dark brown pants and cream or blue sweaters. Everything in my closet looked the same. His taste is so BORING!
Now, he just gives me money and tells me to buy something.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ScrapsCdn
BucketHead
PeaNut 147998 - 5/20/2004
Posts: 600 Layouts: 16
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:52:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've found that people who tell you what to wear are generally trying to change you as a person, or that they are embarassed of who or what you are.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok. I can understand that. I don't really shop for clothes alot with my Best Freind anymore because of issues somewhat similar.
I don't find that with my DH though. He is my toughest critic, but yet when it comes to clothing we want to look good. We don't let each other leave the house in huge fashion mistakes.
I have found its been a way for us to learn how to tell each other the not-so-pretty truth about stuff (clothes) while learning how to say that without stomping on anyones feelers, KWIM?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Subject:
Does your husband (boyfriend, sig. other) have an opinion about what you wear? Forum: NSBR Board
Posted:5/12/2006 8:22:45 AM
Post Posted by:
little-ducky
Return to Last List | Post Reply | Post New Topic
PeaPoster
little-ducky
just put it on my bill.
PeaNut 74090 - 3/7/2003
Posts: 6745 Layouts: 468
Loc: denver co
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:22:45 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been requested (told, admonished, warned) that green looks bad on me becaue I have olive skin. I love green, though! darn him, anyway. otherwise he doesn't say much. I get a lot more attention when I wear a tight shirt...
what about you? do you have a live-in clothing advisor? (and, more importantly, are they right most of the time?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
stefanieva
AncestralPea
PeaNut 100980 - 8/11/2003
Posts: 4245 Layouts: 168
Loc: Virginia
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:24:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope, he doesn't care what I wear. He doesn't like some of my shoes (Crocs mostly) but I do so I still wear them. As I don't like some of his shoes but he wears what he wants.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
m2b
PeaAddict
PeaNut 226741 - 10/11/2005
Posts: 1209 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:24:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No.
He never says anything about what I am wearing (in a negative way) He actually thinks I worry too much about it.
I am not sure how I would take it if he did that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
frogfan
AncestralPea
PeaNut 115033 - 11/8/2003
Posts: 4427 Layouts: 38
Loc: Where in the world is???
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:26:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
he said something negative once and it was about my favorite shirt. I told him how much he hurt my feelings and he hasn't done it again. (But then he stopped with the good comments as well, so I think I screwed myself over somehow...)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LooLooScraps2
PeaNut
PeaNut 75536 - 3/13/2003
Posts: 147 Layouts: 14
Loc: Charleston, S.C.
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:26:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL no! I see what my husband picks out for himself....I'm not about to let him choose what I wear. He likes when I wear skirts though. That's about as much fashion advice as I will take from him!
Lori
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mrs Smarty Pants
PEAing Like R. Kelly
PeaNut 180865 - 12/13/2004
Posts: 10822 Layouts: 0
Loc: Brooklyn, NY/Now NJ
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:26:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He has certain 'styles' he prefers and will tell me so - but he doesn't really tell me anything negative - he'll just reenforce the positive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
grace*smom
PeaNut
PeaNut 190373 - 2/9/2005
Posts: 284 Layouts: 0
Loc: the 'dotte
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:27:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so knows better than to offer unsolicited neg. opinions hahahaha i have him trained.
actually so has very good taste so i ask him all the time of his opinion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
joybugger
PeaAddict
PeaNut 44246 - 8/4/2002
Posts: 1618 Layouts: 78
Loc: Home of Garth Brooks
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:27:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My DH does have an opinion, and he is usually right. That is to say, if he likes something on me or helps me pick it out, I often get tons of compliments.
Exception is my peach suit. He hates the color, but I often get compliments on that one too.
He is very careful though, not to be too "honest" unless I have ASSURED him he won't hurt my feelings.
ETA: He usually only gives his opinion when ASKED. So that's good.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MissFrenchJessica
PeaAddict
PeaNut 210385 - 6/16/2005
Posts: 1886 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:29:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope. No matter what I wear, my dh tells me I look 'great' in. He's sweet, but he's not always honest with me. Sometimes I look at pictures of myself and wonder WHY would he let me go out looking like THAT!?! LOL!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bear_mom
PeaAddict
PeaNut 142661 - 4/19/2004
Posts: 1006 Layouts: 3
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:29:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes he does. He is much like MSP's dh, he tells me what he likes on me, but rarely tells me when he doesn't.
He does go clothes shopping with me sometimes and if I try something on he doesn't like - he does tell me then. If I really like it, I will still get it though.
Emily
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MarshmallowKitty
That'll do Pea
PeaNut 51676 - 10/8/2002
Posts: 12922 Layouts: 24
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:30:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, he doesn't. He does have an opinion about the amount shopping I do!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JBSmom
PEAnuts and Crackerjacks
PeaNut 11438 - 2/23/2001
Posts: 10068 Layouts: 248
Loc: CA girl in the rain of WA
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:31:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my DH doesn't offer his opinon, good or bad.
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ScrapsCdn
BucketHead
PeaNut 147998 - 5/20/2004
Posts: 600 Layouts: 16
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:39:33 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We have given each other VETO power over clothing.
He's caught a few things on me that aren't so attractive, and said honey you need to change.
We also use it when doing our twice yearly closet cleanout. Things that either of us think we should still be able to wear and that just aren't working anymore get vetoed and tossed.
We are trying to make better clothing decisions and pruchases. We usually shop for clothes together as well, but he tires quickly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GrinningCat
Proudly Canadian
PeaNut 43061 - 7/19/2002
Posts: 20660 Layouts: 2
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:39:35 AM
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The only man who can tell me what to wear is my co-producer and we're picking wardrobe for a show. Anyone else, forget it, they have no right. And they usually have an ulterior motive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ScrapsCdn
BucketHead
PeaNut 147998 - 5/20/2004
Posts: 600 Layouts: 16
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:40:57 AM
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And they usually have an ulterior motive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm curious! Could you explain that a little more?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KatieMoore
Will I ever get to Buckethead?!
PeaNut 256329 - 4/5/2006
Posts: 409 Layouts: 3
Loc: Southeast MI
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:49:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(and, more importantly, are they right most of the time?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dh only comments when I ask, and I only ask when I see the "oooh-that-looks-bad-but-I'm-keeping-my mouth-shut look"
and he is always right. I have a fashion handicap
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~AlbertaPea~
PeaAddict
PeaNut 71213 - 2/22/2003
Posts: 1114 Layouts: 0
Loc: Alberta,Canada
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:56:34 AM
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I wish! Nope, unless I ask, DH rarely comments on what I wear.
He however, asks me to pick out HIS clothes for him. I guess he trusts my judgement?!
Lynn
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GrinningCat
Proudly Canadian
PeaNut 43061 - 7/19/2002
Posts: 20660 Layouts: 2
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:59:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And they usually have an ulterior motive.
-----------------------------------------------
I'm curious! Could you explain that a little more?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've found that people who tell you what to wear are generally trying to change you as a person, or that they are embarassed of who or what you are.
That is why the only opinion I take is my producer's opinion, as that is purely business and it's not me on camera...it's the persona.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cajuncandy
AncestralPea
PeaNut 182236 - 12/27/2004
Posts: 4186 Layouts: 4
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:59:38 AM
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Not unless I ask and then he is honest with me. The only item of clothing that I know he hates with a passion are those capri pants, he can't stand them.
Every year I try a pair or two and they always look goofy on me!
2nd part of the question, he's always right, just ask him. Seriously, he has better fashion sense than I do. Sad, but true.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5921 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:59:42 AM
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yes
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gorgeouskid
PeaFixture
PeaNut 83119 - 4/25/2003
Posts: 3102 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 9:01:31 AM
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Never ever has he said anything about what I'm going to wear.
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mackeysmom
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 102835 - 8/22/2003
Posts: 2736 Layouts: 2
Loc: in the land of almost right
Posted: 5/12/2006 9:02:29 AM
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No. My DH could care less.
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batya
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 59094 - 12/20/2002
Posts: 2623 Layouts: 0
Loc: up on my high horse
Posted: 5/12/2006 9:02:30 AM
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DH doesn't care. Even when I ask his opinion, it's always, "that's fine!" He really doesn't complain, ever. I guess I should be thankful.
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AKathy
PeaAddict
PeaNut 45443 - 8/13/2002
Posts: 1053 Layouts: 92
Loc: Minot, North Dakota
Posted: 5/12/2006 9:03:26 AM
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My DH never did. He did however tell me when he thought I was looking especially good. He always needed help choosing clothes though and in fact, I usually bought most of his clothes.
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m2b
PeaAddict
PeaNut 226741 - 10/11/2005
Posts: 1209 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 9:06:39 AM
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I agree with grinning cat.
I have had friends who were in relationships where the bf would say something or buy clothes that are nothing like what my friend would where and also tell her she looks great with out make up etc.... It is/was all about control.
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joybugger
PeaAddict
PeaNut 44246 - 8/4/2002
Posts: 1618 Layouts: 78
Loc: Home of Garth Brooks
Posted: 5/12/2006 9:11:08 AM
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I've found that people who tell you what to wear are generally trying to change you as a person, or that they are embarassed of who or what you are.
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I see what you are saying, but I think it depends on how it's done. My DH, for example, would never TELL me what to wear unless I asked his opinion. He will HELP me though, when I ask. And if he picks out something for me I ALWAYS get compliments on it. He just has a really good eye for color and what looks good. I value his opinion.
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Tracyarts
AncestralPea
PeaNut 44329 - 8/5/2002
Posts: 4782 Layouts: 29
Loc: Houston, TX
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:44:01 PM
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Not really. I will get told sometimes: "You should wear that more often, you look really nice in it". Or "Why don't you wear that (fill in the blank with whatever garment he is talking about) more often because it looks really nice on you."
But that's about all the input I'm ever given regards to clothing choices.
Tracy
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PeaingDiva
Stylishly Peaing
PeaNut 101187 - 8/12/2003
Posts: 16015 Layouts: 144
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:45:36 PM
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Not really, he'll just say something looks nice or that he likes a certain color.
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sandikal
Henny Button--English Lit Major
PeaNut 67765 - 2/7/2003
Posts: 18936 Layouts: 83
Loc: Fountain Valley, CA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:50:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
what about you? do you have a live-in clothing advisor? (and, more importantly, are they right most of the time?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My DH is a regular Clinton Kelly. For a while, he was actually stopping at the mall and buying me clothes. I had to tell him to stop. He kept buying black or dark brown pants and cream or blue sweaters. Everything in my closet looked the same. His taste is so BORING!
Now, he just gives me money and tells me to buy something.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ScrapsCdn
BucketHead
PeaNut 147998 - 5/20/2004
Posts: 600 Layouts: 16
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:52:24 PM
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've found that people who tell you what to wear are generally trying to change you as a person, or that they are embarassed of who or what you are.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok. I can understand that. I don't really shop for clothes alot with my Best Freind anymore because of issues somewhat similar.
I don't find that with my DH though. He is my toughest critic, but yet when it comes to clothing we want to look good. We don't let each other leave the house in huge fashion mistakes.
I have found its been a way for us to learn how to tell each other the not-so-pretty truth about stuff (clothes) while learning how to say that without stomping on anyones feelers, KWIM?
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Anonymous said...
You got that right. What a freak.
10:21 PM
Anonymous said...
I was hoping you'd see that thread! You never disappoint. lol
10:28 PM
Anonymous said...
Another one: MeghanR
If she posts about trying to have that baby one more time, I am going to scream. She bugs the hell out of me. How can her husband stand her?
10:29 PM
Anonymous said...
It is called having friends...try it sometime.
10:36 PM
2 Peas In My Ass said...
Anonymous said...
It is called having friends...try it sometime.
-I do have friends. Only they are people I actualy know and see and talk to over coffee. They aren't screens.
10:45 PM
Anonymous said...
A lot of Peas know each other in real life. I have met and know and socialize with at least 30.
Friends, look it up.
11:02 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves what they're lacking in their own lives that they devote so much time to a message board?
11:03 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves how much their investing in the board to be so bitter about so many people on that board?
11:03 PM
Anonymous said...
It's sad to see so many women with families spending so much time online.
11:06 PM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves what they're lacking in their own lives that they devote so much time to a message board?
11:03 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves how much their investing in the board to be so bitter about so many people on that board?
11:03 PM
_______________________________
LMAO...good one.
11:14 PM
Anonymous said...
Most women on that board are depressed. That's why they spend so much time escaping in cyberland. I guess a computer addiction is better than drugs or booze.
11:20 PM
coochie mama said...
Online friends? Maybe, maybe not.
Thousands of strangers? Definately.
11:23 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves how much their investing in the board to be so bitter about so many people on that board?
11:03 PM
--------------------------------
No kidding!
11:25 PM
Anonymous said...
"most women on that board are depressed"????
Where do you get that from?
11:42 PM
Anonymous said...
Methinks you all protest too much.
The repeated comments about all the time Peas spend, all the (in your opinions, fake) friendships and connections on 2P's are obviously coming from jealousy.
Did you post and get ignored? It happens. It's okay. Just jump back in, instead of badmouthing the place and all the P's over here.
Then maybe you all can be a part of what you are so obviously jealous of. It isn't a secret clique. C'mon...you know you want to. You are already reading, so go on and post. Maybe you too can have fun on the internet rather than the tiresome virtual floggings over here.
11:48 PM
Anonymous said...
She is so freaking annoying
12:09 AM
stephanie480 said...
My condolences to paigepea's husband.
12:31 AM
Anonymous said...
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional.
12:33 AM
Anonymous said...
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional
My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs.
12:40 AM
Anonymous said...
"
My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
Which would make her about a 14.
12:41 AM
Anonymous said...
Yes, and she is fat. Any average height woman who is a size 14 is too fat.
12:44 AM
Anonymous said...
I'm about a 14 and I agree, too fat. 10/12 would be healthier.
12:47 AM
Anonymous said...
Annabella is totally fat. If she thinks she's not, she's delusional.
1:33 AM
Anonymous said...
"The repeated comments about all the time Peas spend, all the (in your opinions, fake) friendships and connections on 2P's are obviously coming from jealousy."
You think I am jealous? Get a life nut! What is there to be jealous of, please explain? Friends aren't people who you chat with online. Friends are people you invest incredible amounts of time and energy into. Friends are people that you know, not someone you are hoping is who she says she is there behind her screen. A friend is a tangible person. You might make connections here at 2 Peas but very very very real friendships. I think some people need to evaluate how much time they really spend online as compared to how much time they invest into their real lives. Ask themselves how many close personal relationships they have right there were they are. The online addicition or online lives many of the Peas have is actually quite unhealthy. Sort of like an imaginary playland filled with imaginary friends.
Jealousy? Clearly not!
5:28 AM
Anonymous said...
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional.
*snort* I was thinking the same thing.
6:14 AM
Anonymous said...
I think someone is jealous that weren't able to be part of the wonderful, caring, supportive community of women at 2peas so they have to resort to THIS. I feel so sorry for the blogger. Insert sad face here.
6:53 AM
Anonymous said...
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional.
Add me to the list that thinks she is at least a size 14. Then again.....did you see the pics from her birthday party (that she charged people money to come to) Maybe she can get away wearing a size smaller than 14 did you see the way she was poured into her clothes. She was almost hanging out at the top. Bwhahahaha
7:27 AM
Anonymous said...
Annabelle probably pays her friends to tell her she's not fat-perhaps birthday party money?
7:40 AM
Anonymous said...
I think I would rather be addicted to booze, at least it's something real and not a group of phoneys pretending to care about your feeling and your pathetic life! You know you need a life when you can't make the drive from the hospital to home without checking your messages, sad.
8:08 AM
Anonymous said...
A little irony here...you are complaining that this woman is taking a mb too seriously, yet here you are posting on a blog time after time that makes fun of and complains about the women on the mb that takes up too much of THEIR time. I mean really, before you hurl insults at me, stop and think about it for a minute. If you are here complaining about THEM, then you are being a huge ass hypocrite because you are taking plenty of your precious time to read their threads, come over here, read all of the comments, analyze the situation yourself, and then post your rude comments. And you can't tell me that you don't come back time after time to see if anyone responded-I do it and so do you. Sorry to be bitchy, but it's pretty darn plain and simple
8:22 AM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
A little irony here...you are complaining that this woman is taking a mb too seriously, yet here you are posting on a blog time after time that makes fun of and complains about the women on the mb that takes up too much of THEIR time. I mean really, before you hurl insults at me, stop and think about it for a minute. If you are here complaining about THEM, then you are being a huge ass hypocrite because you are taking plenty of your precious time to read their threads, come over here, read all of the comments, analyze the situation yourself, and then post your rude comments. And you can't tell me that you don't come back time after time to see if anyone responded-I do it and so do you. Sorry to be bitchy, but it's pretty darn plain and simple
-Last time I said something similar, because it seem to be the same complaint from the blogger over and over like a broken record, I got my hand slapped and ass spanked. I still think it's true, though. Well said.
8:25 AM
Anonymous said...
"Most women on that board are depressed. That's why they spend so much time escaping in cyberland. I guess a computer addiction is better than drugs or booze. "
Yes that's true. Since they don't have friends, the board is their only adult conversation.
8:30 AM
Anonymous said...
bekalab - you're so transparent.
8:35 AM
Anonymous Pea said...
Anonymous said...
bekalab - you're so transparent.
8:35 AM
Who are you accusing of being bekalab?
8:36 AM
Anonymous Pea said...
All of the anons posting here, I wonder how many of these threads you post on just so know one realizes you come here to bash them behind their back?
You can admit here, ya know. Since it's anon, know one will know it's you.
I don't. I am just a lurker who rarely posts.
8:40 AM
Anonymous said...
Will someone please tell Paigepea about this blog? She probably missed all the threads about it since she was on vacation. She needs to see what's being said over here.
8:41 AM
Anonymous said...
"All of the anons posting here, I wonder how many of these threads you post on just so know one realizes you come here to bash them behind their back?"
I don't, but Ashley Nicole did. Then after her name was said over here repeatedly, then all of a sudden oblio was being accused of being the blog owner when he doesn't fit the profile of the blog owner at all.
8:42 AM
Anonymous said...
I am not kidding, PaigePea acts like the only freaking mom in the world. For someone who is married to a doctor she sure does rely on the MB as her support. Constantly bitching about her peanut when she was pregnant and the help she would or would not have. Now she wont stop bitching about her daughter and her oozing nips. Give me a break. Ask a question, get some advice, get a fucking clue but do not hound us weekly with this crap.
I bet her doctor husband is sick of her. She really needs to up those pills.
8:47 AM
Just Click Me! said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:47 AM
Anonymous said...
AnnieBelle is Aunt Jamima on crack.
8:48 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
"All of the anons posting here, I wonder how many of these threads you post on just so know one realizes you come here to bash them behind their back?"
I don't, but Ashley Nicole did. Then after her name was said over here repeatedly, then all of a sudden oblio was being accused of being the blog owner when he doesn't fit the profile of the blog owner at all.
8:42 AM
I think I need further explantion or a clearer one. lol
The mud is in the way.
8:52 AM
Anon #9 said...
Anonymous said...
AnnieBelle is Aunt Jamima on crack.
8:48 AM
No she is not! She looks like howdy doody! Look up his pitcure on google and compare. It's worth it!
8:57 AM
Anonymous said...
13.95
_________________________
HILARIOUS!!!!
9:02 AM
Anonymous said...
I do agree to a point about the amount of time being spent on a message board when you have family that is wanting your attention. I think that is a valid point, and one that if Peas disagree with, they are lying. Depression is not as much part of it, as denying themselves adult conversation for the sake of saying "I going to be a SAHM" and then spend half the day on the computer? But I guess it sounds good in their head. One less reason for working Mom's to feel guilty, just remember half of the SAHM's are staring at a computer screen instead of their kids.
9:09 AM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
I do agree to a point about the amount of time being spent on a message board when you have family that is wanting your attention. I think that is a valid point, and one that if Peas disagree with, they are lying. Depression is not as much part of it, as denying themselves adult conversation for the sake of saying "I going to be a SAHM" and then spend half the day on the computer? But I guess it sounds good in their head. One less reason for working Mom's to feel guilty, just remember half of the SAHM's are staring at a computer screen instead of their kids.
9:09 AM
This is a great point. I find it amusing (and I am a SAHM) that some SAHM's are all high and mighty and thing WOHM are horrible for not raising their children (I don't agree with that) when they spend all damn day on the computer.
I know there are a hell of alot of peas children that would be much better off and get much more attention being in daycare.
I just find it ironic. They bash others, but seem to spend no time parenting their own children.
I mean being at home does not make you a great mom. Spending time with and teaching your kids makes you a great mom. That has nothing to do with spending hours on two peas.
9:13 AM
Annabella said...
Howdy Doody? Are you serious? You really think I look like Howdy Doody??
9:18 AM
Anonymous said...
ITA, and quite frankly felt myself slipping and sliding into the "vortex" of 2peas. I'm also a SAHM, and when my son was bringing things to me at the computer, and sitting down by the computer to spend time with me, I knew there was a big UH OH going on. I don't think most of these women admit to this, but they are ready willing and able to bash other parenting.
9:19 AM
Anonymous said...
This is a great point. I find it amusing (and I am a SAHM) that some SAHM's are all high and mighty and thing WOHM are horrible for not raising their children (I don't agree with that) when they spend all damn day on the computer.
*********************************
A-fucking-men
10:01 AM
Hillary said...
"My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
"Which would make her about a 14."
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
10:06 AM
Anonymous said...
Let's bash the Catholics now. . .
Catholic Teacher fired for IVF?!?
WTF its okay for their priests to molest little children and screw them up for life while they protect them from the law but they fire teachers who try to get pregnant with IVF.
10:09 AM
Anonymous said...
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
Oh pullllease! I have big boobs too. What I think is sick is the way she lets them hang out.
10:10 AM
Anonymous said...
"My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
"Which would make her about a 14."
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
10:06 AM
Well now, dumbass, it depends on how tall you are. Annabella is 5'6. That would make her fat.
10:11 AM
Anonymous said...
Hilary's intelligence is showing again. I'm Annabella's height with big boobs and at 175 I'm a 14. I haven't been size 10 since I weighed about 130-140.
10:37 AM
Anonymous said...
Well now that you've posted a picture of Howdy Doody, Annabella, I really can see the resemblence. LOL.
10:37 AM
Anonymous said...
I'm sorry but Annabella doesn't look like a size 14. She looks MUCH BIGGER. She's a fat ass. And ugly as hell.
10:39 AM
Annabella said...
Anonymous said...
Well now that you've posted a picture of Howdy Doody, Annabella, I really can see the resemblence. LOL.
10:37 AM
Glad I could help.
10:42 AM
Anonymous said...
Hillary said...
"My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
"Which would make her about a 14."
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
10:06 AM
Did you factor in height? How tall are you?
10:43 AM
Anon #9 said...
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PeaPoster
~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:11:01 AM
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Just wondering.
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charlottesweb93
AncestralPea
PeaNut 92142 - 6/22/2003
Posts: 4706 Layouts: 39
Loc: Independence, Mo
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:12:21 AM
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According to Meg Cabot..Size 12 is Not Fat.
Just a little bibliophile humor.
A lot factors into size 14 being fat. Like height, for one.
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TerriG
PeaFixture
PeaNut 28363 - 1/26/2002
Posts: 3156 Layouts: 28
Loc: Up to my eyeballs...
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:12:35 AM
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Marilyn Monroe was a size 14.
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ginacivey
♣♣♣♣♣♣♣
PeaNut 32477 - 3/14/2002
Posts: 11503 Layouts: 32
Loc: end of tornado alley
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:12:54 AM
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what makes you ask
when i was a 14 i considered myself too heavy...and probably called myself 'fat'
i think it just depends on a number of circumstances....
do you consider it fat?
gina
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Skybar
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 188727 - 1/31/2005
Posts: 5399 Layouts: 0
Loc: AZ desert
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:13:20 AM
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uhmmmm, well, not really. (that's about what I am....12-14)
depends on how tall you are?
could be worse....
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ANIPC
AncestralPea
PeaNut 16929 - 6/14/2001
Posts: 4718 Layouts: 27
Loc: My heart is in Texas but my Soul is in Philly.
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:13:50 AM
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It depends if your short or tall ...
that's one thing to consider...
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heartcat
Mrs. Pea Guilfoyle
PeaNut 51429 - 10/7/2002
Posts: 18954 Layouts: 115
Loc: Vegas, Baby!
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:14:13 AM
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It depends on a person's height and general body shape, I think.
If someone is 5' tall, and very small boned, for 'her' to wear a size 14 might mean she is overweight.
For someone who is 5'9", with a larger build, broad shoulders and hips, etc. but not overweight, then a size 14 might be just right, and even too small in some cases.
And 'hi' Marty, it's good to see you!
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Kelly340
PeaAddict
PeaNut 84687 - 5/4/2003
Posts: 1780 Layouts: 0
Loc: Maritimes
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:14:46 AM
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I believe 14 is the beginning of the "plus" sizes. Lots of stores don't carry over a 12, so uh, I guess.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5913 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:08 AM
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i'm a size 12, but i'm only 5 feet tall. i definitely need to lose some weight around the middle... although, i do have a killer rack. lol
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OhSmellyCat
BucketHead
PeaNut 235294 - 12/8/2005
Posts: 731 Layouts: 2
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:21 AM
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On me it is not fat but when I was super underweight I wore a 10. I would be very happy to wear a 14 again.
I am tall and big boned.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:48 AM
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Well, that's what size I am right now.
Granted, i had a baby 5 months ago, but yes, itis a bit heavier than I would like to be only because I'm a shorty.
I"m just kinda interested in what other people consider fat.
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sandikal
Henny Button--English Lit Major
PeaNut 67765 - 2/7/2003
Posts: 18931 Layouts: 83
Loc: Fountain Valley, CA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:57 AM
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Fat is determined in a lot of ways, the least of which is clothing size.
This tool will help tell you if you are fat:
Dr. Koop Ideal Body Weight Calculator
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charlottesweb93
AncestralPea
PeaNut 92142 - 6/22/2003
Posts: 4706 Layouts: 39
Loc: Independence, Mo
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:16:27 AM
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I believe 14 is the beginning of the "plus" sizes. Lots of stores don't carry over a 12, so uh, I guess.
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Not the stores I shop. Size 16 is where they stop.
14W is the start of plus sizes.
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m2b
PeaAddict
PeaNut 226741 - 10/11/2005
Posts: 1209 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:16:31 AM
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It depends on how tall you are
I am 5' 2" and when I was growing in to a size 8 the weight I was at at that time was considered "overweight" on the chart at the doctors office.
I knew I wasn't as small as I had used to be but I didn't consider myself overweight.
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KatieMoore
Will I ever get to Buckethead?!
PeaNut 256329 - 4/5/2006
Posts: 409 Layouts: 3
Loc: Southeast MI
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:16:31 AM
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unless your doctor says so, then I don't think so.
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AngelKriC
PeaAddict
PeaNut 215522 - 7/21/2005
Posts: 1964 Layouts: 3
Loc: Franklin, NC
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:17:06 AM
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I think it also depends on heighth and body build....
/hijack Are you the 2Peas MySpace Group person? LOL I put in a request about a week or so ago, and haven't heard back, are you not accepting new members? I can give you my myspace space LOL. Thanks! /end hijack
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rebekahjg
BucketHead
PeaNut 225625 - 10/3/2005
Posts: 567 Layouts: 17
Loc: ne oh
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:18:11 AM
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i do have a killer rack. lol
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lol..me too Heather! I think that's why I've been so hesitant to lose weight.. my girls have gotten HUGE!!
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Eeyorefanatic
PeaAddict
PeaNut 41481 - 6/28/2002
Posts: 1908 Layouts: 47
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:18:21 AM
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I think it is the biggest sixe not to be considered plus size by most stores.
However a 14 looks very different on different builds. When I wear a 14 people think Im a 10-12 (Im 5'9"
and while marilyn monroe wore a size 14, by todays sizing that would be an 8/10.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:18:45 AM
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Hi, Cathy!!!
Heather-
Yes, i do have a killer rack, but I think part of that is because I'm breastfeeding.
And whoever said you lose weight while breastfeeding was lying.
Krissy-
Yes, I am the Moderator for the MySpace group.
Check again, I accept new people like every day. It just takes me awhile, sometimes. If not, try again and I'll check it later.
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ScrapsCdn
BucketHead
PeaNut 147998 - 5/20/2004
Posts: 599 Layouts: 16
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:19:22 AM
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I'm 5'10, and in a 12 right now. I'm feeling a little large and would seriously be bummed if I was in a 14.
I like a 10, an 8 is getting tooo skinny for my height.
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hiccupp
I C-U-Pea-Pea
PeaNut 99958 - 8/5/2003
Posts: 5864 Layouts: 52
Loc: Illinois
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:20:29 AM
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well...for me its too big. I FEEL fat
I'm right between a 12/14 depending on style/brand, and its too big for ME. I'm currently 5'2 and weigh 160 (groan) Part of my problem too, is that I carry a LOT of weight in my stomach. If I could just slice it off I'd be an EASY 12.
I *should* weigh 120-125, but I feel like that'd be too small for me (I am 'big boned', wide really, I'm just not a petite build even before I gained weight) I think 130 would be good. I'd be THRILLED with 125, but that seems SO far off right now
For me...a 8/10 would be good. 10/12 is my goal for now
But I have a friend who would look TERRIBLE at a 14, she'd be way too skinny. But she's taller.
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Marzbar71
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 73461 - 3/4/2003
Posts: 2154 Layouts: 15
Loc: Chicago, IL
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:20:29 AM
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I think alot depends on your frame.
But the Marilyn argument doesn't really fly. Size 14 back in 1955 is WAY different than size 14 today. Basically, all clothes used to be sized like wedding dresses. Most clothing industries started "vanity sizing" while the bridal industry stayed the same.
Here's a link to a size 12-14 woman who was given the chance to try on a Marilyn dress:
The Marilyn Myth
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ScrapsCdn
BucketHead
PeaNut 147998 - 5/20/2004
Posts: 599 Layouts: 16
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:21:04 AM
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And whoever said you lose weight while breastfeeding was lying.
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You do use more calories, but I believe that I read that a woman who is breastfeeding will hand on to some extra body weight until she stops. I think the figure was about 5 0 10 lbs.
Just a safety measure for your body, so it can protect the supply for the baby.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5913 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:23:05 AM
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If I could just slice it off I'd be an EASY 12.
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yes. me, too!
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*HuskerFaninIL*
Mommy of LMM-O-Pea
PeaNut 51325 - 10/6/2002
Posts: 8413 Layouts: 250
Loc: Husker fan in the Illini State
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:23:50 AM
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Sandikal, that is the only BMI calcualator that I have actually liked. I really like that it asks your frame size. I am big boned and will never weigh what a normal BMI index says I should (the ones that dont take into consideration your bones).
Thanks for posting that!
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KristinL16
PeaAddict
PeaNut 142870 - 4/20/2004
Posts: 1261 Layouts: 46
Loc: MN
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:25:07 AM
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For me it would be. I am short, and according to the link posted I should weigh between 102 and 112. That is where I was at with weight in college. While I would love to be there again, I don't think it is realistic, since I don't have the time to be as active as I was when I didn't have a car, was a waitress and a hotel housekeeper, and walked 40 minutes to and from class everyday. I currently am 125 and a size 4 or 6. I do have some weight to lose in the middle after my last baby, but mostly I need to tone up. According to the website I am overweight.
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bugaboo49
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 25180 - 11/27/2001
Posts: 2490 Layouts: 3
Loc: Texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:27:06 AM
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depends, if you are 4'11, i would say yes. but if you are 5'10", no 1'm 5'3" and i wear 14. i'm fat (my own opinion). my sister in law is 5'10" and wears a 14 and is not...
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:27:07 AM
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Sarah-
OMG, you sound EXACTLY like me.
I was my skinniest at 125. I wore a 4/6 depending on what brand it was. You could totally feel my bones, though.
I am not sure if I'll ever be back there, as I had to work my butt of to get there, but I would love to be a 6/8.
I was an 8/10 right before I got preggo.
I have told myself that I'm giving me 6 months to eat whateverand not work out.
Right at the 6 month mark, i'm digging out the treadmill and starting to watch what I eat.
I only have a few weeks left.
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huskerscrapper
Looser Liberal Lair
PeaNut 49249 - 9/16/2002
Posts: 29127 Layouts: 123
Loc: Husker Nation
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:32:36 AM
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For me it is.
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kathybishop
PeaAddict
PeaNut 15394 - 5/14/2001
Posts: 1210 Layouts: 68
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:32:57 AM
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I was going to cite the ol Marilyn Monroe size - although I thought she was a size 16?
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:34:31 AM
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Krissy-
I just checked members of the MS group, and you're there.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:36:28 AM
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Yeah, I remember seeing a MM movie-was it how to marry a millionaire, perhaps??
And she was BIG!! But she still looked so good!! She had it all in the right places.
Me- I get it in my belly.
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Mrs Potato Head
AncestralPea
PeaNut 143878 - 4/26/2004
Posts: 4062 Layouts: 21
Loc: Maryland
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:39:20 AM
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Depends on the person - height, bone structure, etc. For me, at 5'3'' it's fat. And I can honestly say that cause it's the size I wear right now.
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Mary Mary
Now accepting hate mail
PeaNut 140474 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 18162 Layouts: 2
Loc: The Palm Springs of WA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:43:40 AM
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For me (5'5" and small bone structure) size 14 is overweight.
That being said, the first year after childbirth I'm lucky if I get into a 14. Don't stress too much about it. You'll have time to lose weight. Right now it's more important to focus on your little one.
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jungmama
BucketHead
PeaNut 203934 - 5/5/2005
Posts: 910 Layouts: 13
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:49:09 AM
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I am 5'1 and for me it is heavy. I wouldn't say "fat".
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Speattle
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 140392 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 5561 Layouts: 1
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:05:53 AM
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It is no secret on this board that I have been working hard (curves+WW) to shape up and slim down for DD's wedding in August.
I am 5-3 and was wearing a very tight 14 six months ago. (I had a few 16s in there too ) In my opinion, yes, I was fat. I weighed more then at any time of my life excluding my 3rd pregnancy 15 years ago (I had toxemia and blew up like a water balloon the last month). I hated pictures of myself and hated the clothes I had to wear. I have a kinda round face even when I am thin and it looked like a big old beach ball!
Again, it depends on your height and frame. Taller women can definitely carry more weight and bigger sizes. It is all a matter of proportion.
Size 14 on a 6 foot tall woman with a larger bone structure would look fine....on me it looks fat.
About the Dr.Koop weight guide thing. According to it I am 17 pounds over weight, yet according to WW I am only a few pounds into the "overweight classification".
I think that you have to remember that muscle weighs more than fat and is a lot more dense. A pound of lean muscle takes up a lot less space on a body than a pound of fat. I have definitely built up more muscle in the last 6 months, so even though I have only lost about 25 pounds, but because I am more toned and carrying more muscle, it looks like more. I'm not quite to where I want to be yet, but I sure feel and look a lot better now. If DD were getting married this weekend, I would be okay with how I look.
Plus the size 12 pants that I bought a few months ago, I have to hold them up with a BELT! (I'm waiting to see if I drop below a 10 before investing in more pants just now).
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dynalady2000
PeaFixture
PeaNut 25620 - 12/7/2001
Posts: 3438 Layouts: 38
Loc: Sweet Home Chicago
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:11:33 AM
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I'm just barely 5' so for me size 14 would mean fat. I wear mostly size 2 now, some 4.
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scrappygirl2
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 56426 - 11/20/2002
Posts: 7656 Layouts: 0
Loc: Michigan
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:11:43 AM
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I am 5'5" and a size 14 for me would mean I need to lose some weight. I look and feel my best in a 10.
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supermom_ttf
~* Anti houseguest Pea *~
PeaNut 78320 - 3/28/2003
Posts: 12797 Layouts: 50
Loc: Wisconsin
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:14:21 AM
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At 5'11" size 14 was my favorite size.
I felt the most comfortable in that size.
*sigh* oh to be that size again.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:15:59 AM
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Speattle-
I haven't been on as much, so I didn't know about your WW.
I just wanted to say "congrats!" it sound like you're doing great!!
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PeanutBirdy
PeaAddict
PeaNut 87088 - 5/20/2003
Posts: 1496 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:16:42 AM
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Meg Cabot..Size 12 is Not Fat
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I can't wait to read that book!
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Speattle
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 140392 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 5561 Layouts: 1
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:22:30 AM
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thanks Marty!
and congratulations on your NEW BABY!
I have 3 kids (all big now) and I breast fed them all. Kudos to you for nursing your little one.
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eight
BucketHead
PeaNut 252264 - 3/8/2006
Posts: 565 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:27:40 AM
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Yes
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LeighUTex
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 117889 - 11/29/2003
Posts: 2495 Layouts: 72
Loc: DFW
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:40:32 AM
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I'm a 14 and I'm 5'11", I hope I'm not considered FAT, I would rather be a 10, but hey I'm down from a 16!
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Speattle
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 140392 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 5561 Layouts: 1
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:42:16 AM
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I think a 14 on a 5-11 frame sounds just right.
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Annabella
start the 5 second delay now
PeaNut 43843 - 7/30/2002
Posts: 19316 Layouts: 42
Loc: East Coast
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:45:28 AM
I'm 5'6 and if I was a 14 I would call myself fat. Not there's anything wrong with being fat, but that's how I would label my body.
-Me too.
11:34 AM
Anonymous said...
You got that right. What a freak.
10:21 PM
Anonymous said...
I was hoping you'd see that thread! You never disappoint. lol
10:28 PM
Anonymous said...
Another one: MeghanR
If she posts about trying to have that baby one more time, I am going to scream. She bugs the hell out of me. How can her husband stand her?
10:29 PM
Anonymous said...
It is called having friends...try it sometime.
10:36 PM
2 Peas In My Ass said...
Anonymous said...
It is called having friends...try it sometime.
-I do have friends. Only they are people I actualy know and see and talk to over coffee. They aren't screens.
10:45 PM
Anonymous said...
A lot of Peas know each other in real life. I have met and know and socialize with at least 30.
Friends, look it up.
11:02 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves what they're lacking in their own lives that they devote so much time to a message board?
11:03 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves how much their investing in the board to be so bitter about so many people on that board?
11:03 PM
Anonymous said...
It's sad to see so many women with families spending so much time online.
11:06 PM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves what they're lacking in their own lives that they devote so much time to a message board?
11:03 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves how much their investing in the board to be so bitter about so many people on that board?
11:03 PM
_______________________________
LMAO...good one.
11:14 PM
Anonymous said...
Most women on that board are depressed. That's why they spend so much time escaping in cyberland. I guess a computer addiction is better than drugs or booze.
11:20 PM
coochie mama said...
Online friends? Maybe, maybe not.
Thousands of strangers? Definately.
11:23 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves how much their investing in the board to be so bitter about so many people on that board?
11:03 PM
--------------------------------
No kidding!
11:25 PM
Anonymous said...
"most women on that board are depressed"????
Where do you get that from?
11:42 PM
Anonymous said...
Methinks you all protest too much.
The repeated comments about all the time Peas spend, all the (in your opinions, fake) friendships and connections on 2P's are obviously coming from jealousy.
Did you post and get ignored? It happens. It's okay. Just jump back in, instead of badmouthing the place and all the P's over here.
Then maybe you all can be a part of what you are so obviously jealous of. It isn't a secret clique. C'mon...you know you want to. You are already reading, so go on and post. Maybe you too can have fun on the internet rather than the tiresome virtual floggings over here.
11:48 PM
Anonymous said...
She is so freaking annoying
12:09 AM
stephanie480 said...
My condolences to paigepea's husband.
12:31 AM
Anonymous said...
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional.
12:33 AM
Anonymous said...
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional
My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs.
12:40 AM
Anonymous said...
"
My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
Which would make her about a 14.
12:41 AM
Anonymous said...
Yes, and she is fat. Any average height woman who is a size 14 is too fat.
12:44 AM
Anonymous said...
I'm about a 14 and I agree, too fat. 10/12 would be healthier.
12:47 AM
Anonymous said...
Annabella is totally fat. If she thinks she's not, she's delusional.
1:33 AM
Anonymous said...
"The repeated comments about all the time Peas spend, all the (in your opinions, fake) friendships and connections on 2P's are obviously coming from jealousy."
You think I am jealous? Get a life nut! What is there to be jealous of, please explain? Friends aren't people who you chat with online. Friends are people you invest incredible amounts of time and energy into. Friends are people that you know, not someone you are hoping is who she says she is there behind her screen. A friend is a tangible person. You might make connections here at 2 Peas but very very very real friendships. I think some people need to evaluate how much time they really spend online as compared to how much time they invest into their real lives. Ask themselves how many close personal relationships they have right there were they are. The online addicition or online lives many of the Peas have is actually quite unhealthy. Sort of like an imaginary playland filled with imaginary friends.
Jealousy? Clearly not!
5:28 AM
Anonymous said...
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional.
*snort* I was thinking the same thing.
6:14 AM
Anonymous said...
I think someone is jealous that weren't able to be part of the wonderful, caring, supportive community of women at 2peas so they have to resort to THIS. I feel so sorry for the blogger. Insert sad face here.
6:53 AM
Anonymous said...
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional.
Add me to the list that thinks she is at least a size 14. Then again.....did you see the pics from her birthday party (that she charged people money to come to) Maybe she can get away wearing a size smaller than 14 did you see the way she was poured into her clothes. She was almost hanging out at the top. Bwhahahaha
7:27 AM
Anonymous said...
Annabelle probably pays her friends to tell her she's not fat-perhaps birthday party money?
7:40 AM
Anonymous said...
I think I would rather be addicted to booze, at least it's something real and not a group of phoneys pretending to care about your feeling and your pathetic life! You know you need a life when you can't make the drive from the hospital to home without checking your messages, sad.
8:08 AM
Anonymous said...
A little irony here...you are complaining that this woman is taking a mb too seriously, yet here you are posting on a blog time after time that makes fun of and complains about the women on the mb that takes up too much of THEIR time. I mean really, before you hurl insults at me, stop and think about it for a minute. If you are here complaining about THEM, then you are being a huge ass hypocrite because you are taking plenty of your precious time to read their threads, come over here, read all of the comments, analyze the situation yourself, and then post your rude comments. And you can't tell me that you don't come back time after time to see if anyone responded-I do it and so do you. Sorry to be bitchy, but it's pretty darn plain and simple
8:22 AM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
A little irony here...you are complaining that this woman is taking a mb too seriously, yet here you are posting on a blog time after time that makes fun of and complains about the women on the mb that takes up too much of THEIR time. I mean really, before you hurl insults at me, stop and think about it for a minute. If you are here complaining about THEM, then you are being a huge ass hypocrite because you are taking plenty of your precious time to read their threads, come over here, read all of the comments, analyze the situation yourself, and then post your rude comments. And you can't tell me that you don't come back time after time to see if anyone responded-I do it and so do you. Sorry to be bitchy, but it's pretty darn plain and simple
-Last time I said something similar, because it seem to be the same complaint from the blogger over and over like a broken record, I got my hand slapped and ass spanked. I still think it's true, though. Well said.
8:25 AM
Anonymous said...
"Most women on that board are depressed. That's why they spend so much time escaping in cyberland. I guess a computer addiction is better than drugs or booze. "
Yes that's true. Since they don't have friends, the board is their only adult conversation.
8:30 AM
Anonymous said...
bekalab - you're so transparent.
8:35 AM
Anonymous Pea said...
Anonymous said...
bekalab - you're so transparent.
8:35 AM
Who are you accusing of being bekalab?
8:36 AM
Anonymous Pea said...
All of the anons posting here, I wonder how many of these threads you post on just so know one realizes you come here to bash them behind their back?
You can admit here, ya know. Since it's anon, know one will know it's you.
I don't. I am just a lurker who rarely posts.
8:40 AM
Anonymous said...
Will someone please tell Paigepea about this blog? She probably missed all the threads about it since she was on vacation. She needs to see what's being said over here.
8:41 AM
Anonymous said...
"All of the anons posting here, I wonder how many of these threads you post on just so know one realizes you come here to bash them behind their back?"
I don't, but Ashley Nicole did. Then after her name was said over here repeatedly, then all of a sudden oblio was being accused of being the blog owner when he doesn't fit the profile of the blog owner at all.
8:42 AM
Anonymous said...
I am not kidding, PaigePea acts like the only freaking mom in the world. For someone who is married to a doctor she sure does rely on the MB as her support. Constantly bitching about her peanut when she was pregnant and the help she would or would not have. Now she wont stop bitching about her daughter and her oozing nips. Give me a break. Ask a question, get some advice, get a fucking clue but do not hound us weekly with this crap.
I bet her doctor husband is sick of her. She really needs to up those pills.
8:47 AM
Just Click Me! said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:47 AM
Anonymous said...
AnnieBelle is Aunt Jamima on crack.
8:48 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
"All of the anons posting here, I wonder how many of these threads you post on just so know one realizes you come here to bash them behind their back?"
I don't, but Ashley Nicole did. Then after her name was said over here repeatedly, then all of a sudden oblio was being accused of being the blog owner when he doesn't fit the profile of the blog owner at all.
8:42 AM
I think I need further explantion or a clearer one. lol
The mud is in the way.
8:52 AM
Anon #9 said...
Anonymous said...
AnnieBelle is Aunt Jamima on crack.
8:48 AM
No she is not! She looks like howdy doody! Look up his pitcure on google and compare. It's worth it!
8:57 AM
Anonymous said...
13.95
_________________________
HILARIOUS!!!!
9:02 AM
Anonymous said...
I do agree to a point about the amount of time being spent on a message board when you have family that is wanting your attention. I think that is a valid point, and one that if Peas disagree with, they are lying. Depression is not as much part of it, as denying themselves adult conversation for the sake of saying "I going to be a SAHM" and then spend half the day on the computer? But I guess it sounds good in their head. One less reason for working Mom's to feel guilty, just remember half of the SAHM's are staring at a computer screen instead of their kids.
9:09 AM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
I do agree to a point about the amount of time being spent on a message board when you have family that is wanting your attention. I think that is a valid point, and one that if Peas disagree with, they are lying. Depression is not as much part of it, as denying themselves adult conversation for the sake of saying "I going to be a SAHM" and then spend half the day on the computer? But I guess it sounds good in their head. One less reason for working Mom's to feel guilty, just remember half of the SAHM's are staring at a computer screen instead of their kids.
9:09 AM
This is a great point. I find it amusing (and I am a SAHM) that some SAHM's are all high and mighty and thing WOHM are horrible for not raising their children (I don't agree with that) when they spend all damn day on the computer.
I know there are a hell of alot of peas children that would be much better off and get much more attention being in daycare.
I just find it ironic. They bash others, but seem to spend no time parenting their own children.
I mean being at home does not make you a great mom. Spending time with and teaching your kids makes you a great mom. That has nothing to do with spending hours on two peas.
9:13 AM
Annabella said...
Howdy Doody? Are you serious? You really think I look like Howdy Doody??
9:18 AM
Anonymous said...
ITA, and quite frankly felt myself slipping and sliding into the "vortex" of 2peas. I'm also a SAHM, and when my son was bringing things to me at the computer, and sitting down by the computer to spend time with me, I knew there was a big UH OH going on. I don't think most of these women admit to this, but they are ready willing and able to bash other parenting.
9:19 AM
Anonymous said...
This is a great point. I find it amusing (and I am a SAHM) that some SAHM's are all high and mighty and thing WOHM are horrible for not raising their children (I don't agree with that) when they spend all damn day on the computer.
*********************************
A-fucking-men
10:01 AM
Hillary said...
"My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
"Which would make her about a 14."
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
10:06 AM
Anonymous said...
Let's bash the Catholics now. . .
Catholic Teacher fired for IVF?!?
WTF its okay for their priests to molest little children and screw them up for life while they protect them from the law but they fire teachers who try to get pregnant with IVF.
10:09 AM
Anonymous said...
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
Oh pullllease! I have big boobs too. What I think is sick is the way she lets them hang out.
10:10 AM
Anonymous said...
"My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
"Which would make her about a 14."
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
10:06 AM
Well now, dumbass, it depends on how tall you are. Annabella is 5'6. That would make her fat.
10:11 AM
Anonymous said...
Hilary's intelligence is showing again. I'm Annabella's height with big boobs and at 175 I'm a 14. I haven't been size 10 since I weighed about 130-140.
10:37 AM
Anonymous said...
Well now that you've posted a picture of Howdy Doody, Annabella, I really can see the resemblence. LOL.
10:37 AM
Anonymous said...
I'm sorry but Annabella doesn't look like a size 14. She looks MUCH BIGGER. She's a fat ass. And ugly as hell.
10:39 AM
Annabella said...
Anonymous said...
Well now that you've posted a picture of Howdy Doody, Annabella, I really can see the resemblence. LOL.
10:37 AM
Glad I could help.
10:42 AM
Anonymous said...
Hillary said...
"My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
"Which would make her about a 14."
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
10:06 AM
Did you factor in height? How tall are you?
10:43 AM
Anon #9 said...
Return to Last List | Post Reply | Post New Topic
PeaBoard Display Page 1 of 3
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PeaPoster
~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:11:01 AM
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Just wondering.
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charlottesweb93
AncestralPea
PeaNut 92142 - 6/22/2003
Posts: 4706 Layouts: 39
Loc: Independence, Mo
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:12:21 AM
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According to Meg Cabot..Size 12 is Not Fat.
Just a little bibliophile humor.
A lot factors into size 14 being fat. Like height, for one.
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TerriG
PeaFixture
PeaNut 28363 - 1/26/2002
Posts: 3156 Layouts: 28
Loc: Up to my eyeballs...
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:12:35 AM
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Marilyn Monroe was a size 14.
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ginacivey
♣♣♣♣♣♣♣
PeaNut 32477 - 3/14/2002
Posts: 11503 Layouts: 32
Loc: end of tornado alley
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:12:54 AM
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what makes you ask
when i was a 14 i considered myself too heavy...and probably called myself 'fat'
i think it just depends on a number of circumstances....
do you consider it fat?
gina
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Skybar
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 188727 - 1/31/2005
Posts: 5399 Layouts: 0
Loc: AZ desert
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:13:20 AM
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uhmmmm, well, not really. (that's about what I am....12-14)
depends on how tall you are?
could be worse....
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ANIPC
AncestralPea
PeaNut 16929 - 6/14/2001
Posts: 4718 Layouts: 27
Loc: My heart is in Texas but my Soul is in Philly.
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:13:50 AM
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It depends if your short or tall ...
that's one thing to consider...
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heartcat
Mrs. Pea Guilfoyle
PeaNut 51429 - 10/7/2002
Posts: 18954 Layouts: 115
Loc: Vegas, Baby!
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:14:13 AM
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It depends on a person's height and general body shape, I think.
If someone is 5' tall, and very small boned, for 'her' to wear a size 14 might mean she is overweight.
For someone who is 5'9", with a larger build, broad shoulders and hips, etc. but not overweight, then a size 14 might be just right, and even too small in some cases.
And 'hi' Marty, it's good to see you!
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Kelly340
PeaAddict
PeaNut 84687 - 5/4/2003
Posts: 1780 Layouts: 0
Loc: Maritimes
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:14:46 AM
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I believe 14 is the beginning of the "plus" sizes. Lots of stores don't carry over a 12, so uh, I guess.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5913 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:08 AM
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i'm a size 12, but i'm only 5 feet tall. i definitely need to lose some weight around the middle... although, i do have a killer rack. lol
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OhSmellyCat
BucketHead
PeaNut 235294 - 12/8/2005
Posts: 731 Layouts: 2
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:21 AM
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On me it is not fat but when I was super underweight I wore a 10. I would be very happy to wear a 14 again.
I am tall and big boned.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:48 AM
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Well, that's what size I am right now.
Granted, i had a baby 5 months ago, but yes, itis a bit heavier than I would like to be only because I'm a shorty.
I"m just kinda interested in what other people consider fat.
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sandikal
Henny Button--English Lit Major
PeaNut 67765 - 2/7/2003
Posts: 18931 Layouts: 83
Loc: Fountain Valley, CA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:57 AM
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Fat is determined in a lot of ways, the least of which is clothing size.
This tool will help tell you if you are fat:
Dr. Koop Ideal Body Weight Calculator
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charlottesweb93
AncestralPea
PeaNut 92142 - 6/22/2003
Posts: 4706 Layouts: 39
Loc: Independence, Mo
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:16:27 AM
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I believe 14 is the beginning of the "plus" sizes. Lots of stores don't carry over a 12, so uh, I guess.
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Not the stores I shop. Size 16 is where they stop.
14W is the start of plus sizes.
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m2b
PeaAddict
PeaNut 226741 - 10/11/2005
Posts: 1209 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:16:31 AM
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It depends on how tall you are
I am 5' 2" and when I was growing in to a size 8 the weight I was at at that time was considered "overweight" on the chart at the doctors office.
I knew I wasn't as small as I had used to be but I didn't consider myself overweight.
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KatieMoore
Will I ever get to Buckethead?!
PeaNut 256329 - 4/5/2006
Posts: 409 Layouts: 3
Loc: Southeast MI
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:16:31 AM
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unless your doctor says so, then I don't think so.
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AngelKriC
PeaAddict
PeaNut 215522 - 7/21/2005
Posts: 1964 Layouts: 3
Loc: Franklin, NC
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:17:06 AM
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I think it also depends on heighth and body build....
/hijack Are you the 2Peas MySpace Group person? LOL I put in a request about a week or so ago, and haven't heard back, are you not accepting new members? I can give you my myspace space LOL. Thanks! /end hijack
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rebekahjg
BucketHead
PeaNut 225625 - 10/3/2005
Posts: 567 Layouts: 17
Loc: ne oh
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:18:11 AM
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i do have a killer rack. lol
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lol..me too Heather! I think that's why I've been so hesitant to lose weight.. my girls have gotten HUGE!!
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Eeyorefanatic
PeaAddict
PeaNut 41481 - 6/28/2002
Posts: 1908 Layouts: 47
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:18:21 AM
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I think it is the biggest sixe not to be considered plus size by most stores.
However a 14 looks very different on different builds. When I wear a 14 people think Im a 10-12 (Im 5'9"
and while marilyn monroe wore a size 14, by todays sizing that would be an 8/10.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:18:45 AM
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Hi, Cathy!!!
Heather-
Yes, i do have a killer rack, but I think part of that is because I'm breastfeeding.
And whoever said you lose weight while breastfeeding was lying.
Krissy-
Yes, I am the Moderator for the MySpace group.
Check again, I accept new people like every day. It just takes me awhile, sometimes. If not, try again and I'll check it later.
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ScrapsCdn
BucketHead
PeaNut 147998 - 5/20/2004
Posts: 599 Layouts: 16
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:19:22 AM
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I'm 5'10, and in a 12 right now. I'm feeling a little large and would seriously be bummed if I was in a 14.
I like a 10, an 8 is getting tooo skinny for my height.
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hiccupp
I C-U-Pea-Pea
PeaNut 99958 - 8/5/2003
Posts: 5864 Layouts: 52
Loc: Illinois
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:20:29 AM
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well...for me its too big. I FEEL fat
I'm right between a 12/14 depending on style/brand, and its too big for ME. I'm currently 5'2 and weigh 160 (groan) Part of my problem too, is that I carry a LOT of weight in my stomach. If I could just slice it off I'd be an EASY 12.
I *should* weigh 120-125, but I feel like that'd be too small for me (I am 'big boned', wide really, I'm just not a petite build even before I gained weight) I think 130 would be good. I'd be THRILLED with 125, but that seems SO far off right now
For me...a 8/10 would be good. 10/12 is my goal for now
But I have a friend who would look TERRIBLE at a 14, she'd be way too skinny. But she's taller.
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Marzbar71
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 73461 - 3/4/2003
Posts: 2154 Layouts: 15
Loc: Chicago, IL
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:20:29 AM
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I think alot depends on your frame.
But the Marilyn argument doesn't really fly. Size 14 back in 1955 is WAY different than size 14 today. Basically, all clothes used to be sized like wedding dresses. Most clothing industries started "vanity sizing" while the bridal industry stayed the same.
Here's a link to a size 12-14 woman who was given the chance to try on a Marilyn dress:
The Marilyn Myth
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ScrapsCdn
BucketHead
PeaNut 147998 - 5/20/2004
Posts: 599 Layouts: 16
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:21:04 AM
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And whoever said you lose weight while breastfeeding was lying.
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You do use more calories, but I believe that I read that a woman who is breastfeeding will hand on to some extra body weight until she stops. I think the figure was about 5 0 10 lbs.
Just a safety measure for your body, so it can protect the supply for the baby.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5913 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:23:05 AM
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If I could just slice it off I'd be an EASY 12.
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yes. me, too!
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*HuskerFaninIL*
Mommy of LMM-O-Pea
PeaNut 51325 - 10/6/2002
Posts: 8413 Layouts: 250
Loc: Husker fan in the Illini State
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:23:50 AM
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Sandikal, that is the only BMI calcualator that I have actually liked. I really like that it asks your frame size. I am big boned and will never weigh what a normal BMI index says I should (the ones that dont take into consideration your bones).
Thanks for posting that!
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KristinL16
PeaAddict
PeaNut 142870 - 4/20/2004
Posts: 1261 Layouts: 46
Loc: MN
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:25:07 AM
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For me it would be. I am short, and according to the link posted I should weigh between 102 and 112. That is where I was at with weight in college. While I would love to be there again, I don't think it is realistic, since I don't have the time to be as active as I was when I didn't have a car, was a waitress and a hotel housekeeper, and walked 40 minutes to and from class everyday. I currently am 125 and a size 4 or 6. I do have some weight to lose in the middle after my last baby, but mostly I need to tone up. According to the website I am overweight.
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bugaboo49
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 25180 - 11/27/2001
Posts: 2490 Layouts: 3
Loc: Texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:27:06 AM
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depends, if you are 4'11, i would say yes. but if you are 5'10", no 1'm 5'3" and i wear 14. i'm fat (my own opinion). my sister in law is 5'10" and wears a 14 and is not...
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:27:07 AM
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Sarah-
OMG, you sound EXACTLY like me.
I was my skinniest at 125. I wore a 4/6 depending on what brand it was. You could totally feel my bones, though.
I am not sure if I'll ever be back there, as I had to work my butt of to get there, but I would love to be a 6/8.
I was an 8/10 right before I got preggo.
I have told myself that I'm giving me 6 months to eat whateverand not work out.
Right at the 6 month mark, i'm digging out the treadmill and starting to watch what I eat.
I only have a few weeks left.
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huskerscrapper
Looser Liberal Lair
PeaNut 49249 - 9/16/2002
Posts: 29127 Layouts: 123
Loc: Husker Nation
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:32:36 AM
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For me it is.
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kathybishop
PeaAddict
PeaNut 15394 - 5/14/2001
Posts: 1210 Layouts: 68
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:32:57 AM
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I was going to cite the ol Marilyn Monroe size - although I thought she was a size 16?
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:34:31 AM
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Krissy-
I just checked members of the MS group, and you're there.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:36:28 AM
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Yeah, I remember seeing a MM movie-was it how to marry a millionaire, perhaps??
And she was BIG!! But she still looked so good!! She had it all in the right places.
Me- I get it in my belly.
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Mrs Potato Head
AncestralPea
PeaNut 143878 - 4/26/2004
Posts: 4062 Layouts: 21
Loc: Maryland
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:39:20 AM
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Depends on the person - height, bone structure, etc. For me, at 5'3'' it's fat. And I can honestly say that cause it's the size I wear right now.
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Mary Mary
Now accepting hate mail
PeaNut 140474 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 18162 Layouts: 2
Loc: The Palm Springs of WA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:43:40 AM
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For me (5'5" and small bone structure) size 14 is overweight.
That being said, the first year after childbirth I'm lucky if I get into a 14. Don't stress too much about it. You'll have time to lose weight. Right now it's more important to focus on your little one.
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jungmama
BucketHead
PeaNut 203934 - 5/5/2005
Posts: 910 Layouts: 13
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:49:09 AM
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I am 5'1 and for me it is heavy. I wouldn't say "fat".
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Speattle
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 140392 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 5561 Layouts: 1
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:05:53 AM
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It is no secret on this board that I have been working hard (curves+WW) to shape up and slim down for DD's wedding in August.
I am 5-3 and was wearing a very tight 14 six months ago. (I had a few 16s in there too ) In my opinion, yes, I was fat. I weighed more then at any time of my life excluding my 3rd pregnancy 15 years ago (I had toxemia and blew up like a water balloon the last month). I hated pictures of myself and hated the clothes I had to wear. I have a kinda round face even when I am thin and it looked like a big old beach ball!
Again, it depends on your height and frame. Taller women can definitely carry more weight and bigger sizes. It is all a matter of proportion.
Size 14 on a 6 foot tall woman with a larger bone structure would look fine....on me it looks fat.
About the Dr.Koop weight guide thing. According to it I am 17 pounds over weight, yet according to WW I am only a few pounds into the "overweight classification".
I think that you have to remember that muscle weighs more than fat and is a lot more dense. A pound of lean muscle takes up a lot less space on a body than a pound of fat. I have definitely built up more muscle in the last 6 months, so even though I have only lost about 25 pounds, but because I am more toned and carrying more muscle, it looks like more. I'm not quite to where I want to be yet, but I sure feel and look a lot better now. If DD were getting married this weekend, I would be okay with how I look.
Plus the size 12 pants that I bought a few months ago, I have to hold them up with a BELT! (I'm waiting to see if I drop below a 10 before investing in more pants just now).
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dynalady2000
PeaFixture
PeaNut 25620 - 12/7/2001
Posts: 3438 Layouts: 38
Loc: Sweet Home Chicago
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:11:33 AM
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I'm just barely 5' so for me size 14 would mean fat. I wear mostly size 2 now, some 4.
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scrappygirl2
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 56426 - 11/20/2002
Posts: 7656 Layouts: 0
Loc: Michigan
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:11:43 AM
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I am 5'5" and a size 14 for me would mean I need to lose some weight. I look and feel my best in a 10.
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supermom_ttf
~* Anti houseguest Pea *~
PeaNut 78320 - 3/28/2003
Posts: 12797 Layouts: 50
Loc: Wisconsin
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:14:21 AM
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At 5'11" size 14 was my favorite size.
I felt the most comfortable in that size.
*sigh* oh to be that size again.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:15:59 AM
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Speattle-
I haven't been on as much, so I didn't know about your WW.
I just wanted to say "congrats!" it sound like you're doing great!!
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PeanutBirdy
PeaAddict
PeaNut 87088 - 5/20/2003
Posts: 1496 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:16:42 AM
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Meg Cabot..Size 12 is Not Fat
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I can't wait to read that book!
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Speattle
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 140392 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 5561 Layouts: 1
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:22:30 AM
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thanks Marty!
and congratulations on your NEW BABY!
I have 3 kids (all big now) and I breast fed them all. Kudos to you for nursing your little one.
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eight
BucketHead
PeaNut 252264 - 3/8/2006
Posts: 565 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:27:40 AM
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Yes
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LeighUTex
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 117889 - 11/29/2003
Posts: 2495 Layouts: 72
Loc: DFW
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:40:32 AM
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I'm a 14 and I'm 5'11", I hope I'm not considered FAT, I would rather be a 10, but hey I'm down from a 16!
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Speattle
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 140392 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 5561 Layouts: 1
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:42:16 AM
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I think a 14 on a 5-11 frame sounds just right.
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Annabella
start the 5 second delay now
PeaNut 43843 - 7/30/2002
Posts: 19316 Layouts: 42
Loc: East Coast
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:45:28 AM
I'm 5'6 and if I was a 14 I would call myself fat. Not there's anything wrong with being fat, but that's how I would label my body.
-Me too.
11:34 AM
Anonymous said...
You got that right. What a freak.
10:21 PM
Anonymous said...
I was hoping you'd see that thread! You never disappoint. lol
10:28 PM
Anonymous said...
Another one: MeghanR
If she posts about trying to have that baby one more time, I am going to scream. She bugs the hell out of me. How can her husband stand her?
10:29 PM
Anonymous said...
It is called having friends...try it sometime.
10:36 PM
2 Peas In My Ass said...
Anonymous said...
It is called having friends...try it sometime.
-I do have friends. Only they are people I actualy know and see and talk to over coffee. They aren't screens.
10:45 PM
Anonymous said...
A lot of Peas know each other in real life. I have met and know and socialize with at least 30.
Friends, look it up.
11:02 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves what they're lacking in their own lives that they devote so much time to a message board?
11:03 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves how much their investing in the board to be so bitter about so many people on that board?
11:03 PM
Anonymous said...
It's sad to see so many women with families spending so much time online.
11:06 PM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves what they're lacking in their own lives that they devote so much time to a message board?
11:03 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves how much their investing in the board to be so bitter about so many people on that board?
11:03 PM
_______________________________
LMAO...good one.
11:14 PM
Anonymous said...
Most women on that board are depressed. That's why they spend so much time escaping in cyberland. I guess a computer addiction is better than drugs or booze.
11:20 PM
coochie mama said...
Online friends? Maybe, maybe not.
Thousands of strangers? Definately.
11:23 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves how much their investing in the board to be so bitter about so many people on that board?
11:03 PM
--------------------------------
No kidding!
11:25 PM
Anonymous said...
"most women on that board are depressed"????
Where do you get that from?
11:42 PM
Anonymous said...
Methinks you all protest too much.
The repeated comments about all the time Peas spend, all the (in your opinions, fake) friendships and connections on 2P's are obviously coming from jealousy.
Did you post and get ignored? It happens. It's okay. Just jump back in, instead of badmouthing the place and all the P's over here.
Then maybe you all can be a part of what you are so obviously jealous of. It isn't a secret clique. C'mon...you know you want to. You are already reading, so go on and post. Maybe you too can have fun on the internet rather than the tiresome virtual floggings over here.
11:48 PM
Anonymous said...
She is so freaking annoying
12:09 AM
stephanie480 said...
My condolences to paigepea's husband.
12:31 AM
Anonymous said...
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional.
12:33 AM
Anonymous said...
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional
My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs.
12:40 AM
Anonymous said...
"
My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
Which would make her about a 14.
12:41 AM
Anonymous said...
Yes, and she is fat. Any average height woman who is a size 14 is too fat.
12:44 AM
Anonymous said...
I'm about a 14 and I agree, too fat. 10/12 would be healthier.
12:47 AM
Anonymous said...
Annabella is totally fat. If she thinks she's not, she's delusional.
1:33 AM
Anonymous said...
"The repeated comments about all the time Peas spend, all the (in your opinions, fake) friendships and connections on 2P's are obviously coming from jealousy."
You think I am jealous? Get a life nut! What is there to be jealous of, please explain? Friends aren't people who you chat with online. Friends are people you invest incredible amounts of time and energy into. Friends are people that you know, not someone you are hoping is who she says she is there behind her screen. A friend is a tangible person. You might make connections here at 2 Peas but very very very real friendships. I think some people need to evaluate how much time they really spend online as compared to how much time they invest into their real lives. Ask themselves how many close personal relationships they have right there were they are. The online addicition or online lives many of the Peas have is actually quite unhealthy. Sort of like an imaginary playland filled with imaginary friends.
Jealousy? Clearly not!
5:28 AM
Anonymous said...
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional.
*snort* I was thinking the same thing.
6:14 AM
Anonymous said...
I think someone is jealous that weren't able to be part of the wonderful, caring, supportive community of women at 2peas so they have to resort to THIS. I feel so sorry for the blogger. Insert sad face here.
6:53 AM
Anonymous said...
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional.
Add me to the list that thinks she is at least a size 14. Then again.....did you see the pics from her birthday party (that she charged people money to come to) Maybe she can get away wearing a size smaller than 14 did you see the way she was poured into her clothes. She was almost hanging out at the top. Bwhahahaha
7:27 AM
Anonymous said...
Annabelle probably pays her friends to tell her she's not fat-perhaps birthday party money?
7:40 AM
Anonymous said...
I think I would rather be addicted to booze, at least it's something real and not a group of phoneys pretending to care about your feeling and your pathetic life! You know you need a life when you can't make the drive from the hospital to home without checking your messages, sad.
8:08 AM
Anonymous said...
A little irony here...you are complaining that this woman is taking a mb too seriously, yet here you are posting on a blog time after time that makes fun of and complains about the women on the mb that takes up too much of THEIR time. I mean really, before you hurl insults at me, stop and think about it for a minute. If you are here complaining about THEM, then you are being a huge ass hypocrite because you are taking plenty of your precious time to read their threads, come over here, read all of the comments, analyze the situation yourself, and then post your rude comments. And you can't tell me that you don't come back time after time to see if anyone responded-I do it and so do you. Sorry to be bitchy, but it's pretty darn plain and simple
8:22 AM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
A little irony here...you are complaining that this woman is taking a mb too seriously, yet here you are posting on a blog time after time that makes fun of and complains about the women on the mb that takes up too much of THEIR time. I mean really, before you hurl insults at me, stop and think about it for a minute. If you are here complaining about THEM, then you are being a huge ass hypocrite because you are taking plenty of your precious time to read their threads, come over here, read all of the comments, analyze the situation yourself, and then post your rude comments. And you can't tell me that you don't come back time after time to see if anyone responded-I do it and so do you. Sorry to be bitchy, but it's pretty darn plain and simple
-Last time I said something similar, because it seem to be the same complaint from the blogger over and over like a broken record, I got my hand slapped and ass spanked. I still think it's true, though. Well said.
8:25 AM
Anonymous said...
"Most women on that board are depressed. That's why they spend so much time escaping in cyberland. I guess a computer addiction is better than drugs or booze. "
Yes that's true. Since they don't have friends, the board is their only adult conversation.
8:30 AM
Anonymous said...
bekalab - you're so transparent.
8:35 AM
Anonymous Pea said...
Anonymous said...
bekalab - you're so transparent.
8:35 AM
Who are you accusing of being bekalab?
8:36 AM
Anonymous Pea said...
All of the anons posting here, I wonder how many of these threads you post on just so know one realizes you come here to bash them behind their back?
You can admit here, ya know. Since it's anon, know one will know it's you.
I don't. I am just a lurker who rarely posts.
8:40 AM
Anonymous said...
Will someone please tell Paigepea about this blog? She probably missed all the threads about it since she was on vacation. She needs to see what's being said over here.
8:41 AM
Anonymous said...
"All of the anons posting here, I wonder how many of these threads you post on just so know one realizes you come here to bash them behind their back?"
I don't, but Ashley Nicole did. Then after her name was said over here repeatedly, then all of a sudden oblio was being accused of being the blog owner when he doesn't fit the profile of the blog owner at all.
8:42 AM
Anonymous said...
I am not kidding, PaigePea acts like the only freaking mom in the world. For someone who is married to a doctor she sure does rely on the MB as her support. Constantly bitching about her peanut when she was pregnant and the help she would or would not have. Now she wont stop bitching about her daughter and her oozing nips. Give me a break. Ask a question, get some advice, get a fucking clue but do not hound us weekly with this crap.
I bet her doctor husband is sick of her. She really needs to up those pills.
8:47 AM
Just Click Me! said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:47 AM
Anonymous said...
AnnieBelle is Aunt Jamima on crack.
8:48 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
"All of the anons posting here, I wonder how many of these threads you post on just so know one realizes you come here to bash them behind their back?"
I don't, but Ashley Nicole did. Then after her name was said over here repeatedly, then all of a sudden oblio was being accused of being the blog owner when he doesn't fit the profile of the blog owner at all.
8:42 AM
I think I need further explantion or a clearer one. lol
The mud is in the way.
8:52 AM
Anon #9 said...
Anonymous said...
AnnieBelle is Aunt Jamima on crack.
8:48 AM
No she is not! She looks like howdy doody! Look up his pitcure on google and compare. It's worth it!
8:57 AM
Anonymous said...
13.95
_________________________
HILARIOUS!!!!
9:02 AM
Anonymous said...
I do agree to a point about the amount of time being spent on a message board when you have family that is wanting your attention. I think that is a valid point, and one that if Peas disagree with, they are lying. Depression is not as much part of it, as denying themselves adult conversation for the sake of saying "I going to be a SAHM" and then spend half the day on the computer? But I guess it sounds good in their head. One less reason for working Mom's to feel guilty, just remember half of the SAHM's are staring at a computer screen instead of their kids.
9:09 AM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
I do agree to a point about the amount of time being spent on a message board when you have family that is wanting your attention. I think that is a valid point, and one that if Peas disagree with, they are lying. Depression is not as much part of it, as denying themselves adult conversation for the sake of saying "I going to be a SAHM" and then spend half the day on the computer? But I guess it sounds good in their head. One less reason for working Mom's to feel guilty, just remember half of the SAHM's are staring at a computer screen instead of their kids.
9:09 AM
This is a great point. I find it amusing (and I am a SAHM) that some SAHM's are all high and mighty and thing WOHM are horrible for not raising their children (I don't agree with that) when they spend all damn day on the computer.
I know there are a hell of alot of peas children that would be much better off and get much more attention being in daycare.
I just find it ironic. They bash others, but seem to spend no time parenting their own children.
I mean being at home does not make you a great mom. Spending time with and teaching your kids makes you a great mom. That has nothing to do with spending hours on two peas.
9:13 AM
Annabella said...
Howdy Doody? Are you serious? You really think I look like Howdy Doody??
9:18 AM
Anonymous said...
ITA, and quite frankly felt myself slipping and sliding into the "vortex" of 2peas. I'm also a SAHM, and when my son was bringing things to me at the computer, and sitting down by the computer to spend time with me, I knew there was a big UH OH going on. I don't think most of these women admit to this, but they are ready willing and able to bash other parenting.
9:19 AM
Anonymous said...
This is a great point. I find it amusing (and I am a SAHM) that some SAHM's are all high and mighty and thing WOHM are horrible for not raising their children (I don't agree with that) when they spend all damn day on the computer.
*********************************
A-fucking-men
10:01 AM
Hillary said...
"My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
"Which would make her about a 14."
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
10:06 AM
Anonymous said...
Let's bash the Catholics now. . .
Catholic Teacher fired for IVF?!?
WTF its okay for their priests to molest little children and screw them up for life while they protect them from the law but they fire teachers who try to get pregnant with IVF.
10:09 AM
Anonymous said...
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
Oh pullllease! I have big boobs too. What I think is sick is the way she lets them hang out.
10:10 AM
Anonymous said...
"My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
"Which would make her about a 14."
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
10:06 AM
Well now, dumbass, it depends on how tall you are. Annabella is 5'6. That would make her fat.
10:11 AM
Anonymous said...
Hilary's intelligence is showing again. I'm Annabella's height with big boobs and at 175 I'm a 14. I haven't been size 10 since I weighed about 130-140.
10:37 AM
Anonymous said...
Well now that you've posted a picture of Howdy Doody, Annabella, I really can see the resemblence. LOL.
10:37 AM
Anonymous said...
I'm sorry but Annabella doesn't look like a size 14. She looks MUCH BIGGER. She's a fat ass. And ugly as hell.
10:39 AM
Annabella said...
Anonymous said...
Well now that you've posted a picture of Howdy Doody, Annabella, I really can see the resemblence. LOL.
10:37 AM
Glad I could help.
10:42 AM
Anonymous said...
Hillary said...
"My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
"Which would make her about a 14."
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
10:06 AM
Did you factor in height? How tall are you?
10:43 AM
Anon #9 said...
Return to Last List | Post Reply | Post New Topic
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PeaPoster
~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:11:01 AM
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Just wondering.
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charlottesweb93
AncestralPea
PeaNut 92142 - 6/22/2003
Posts: 4706 Layouts: 39
Loc: Independence, Mo
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:12:21 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Meg Cabot..Size 12 is Not Fat.
Just a little bibliophile humor.
A lot factors into size 14 being fat. Like height, for one.
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TerriG
PeaFixture
PeaNut 28363 - 1/26/2002
Posts: 3156 Layouts: 28
Loc: Up to my eyeballs...
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:12:35 AM
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Marilyn Monroe was a size 14.
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ginacivey
♣♣♣♣♣♣♣
PeaNut 32477 - 3/14/2002
Posts: 11503 Layouts: 32
Loc: end of tornado alley
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:12:54 AM
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what makes you ask
when i was a 14 i considered myself too heavy...and probably called myself 'fat'
i think it just depends on a number of circumstances....
do you consider it fat?
gina
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Skybar
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 188727 - 1/31/2005
Posts: 5399 Layouts: 0
Loc: AZ desert
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:13:20 AM
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uhmmmm, well, not really. (that's about what I am....12-14)
depends on how tall you are?
could be worse....
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ANIPC
AncestralPea
PeaNut 16929 - 6/14/2001
Posts: 4718 Layouts: 27
Loc: My heart is in Texas but my Soul is in Philly.
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:13:50 AM
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It depends if your short or tall ...
that's one thing to consider...
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heartcat
Mrs. Pea Guilfoyle
PeaNut 51429 - 10/7/2002
Posts: 18954 Layouts: 115
Loc: Vegas, Baby!
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:14:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It depends on a person's height and general body shape, I think.
If someone is 5' tall, and very small boned, for 'her' to wear a size 14 might mean she is overweight.
For someone who is 5'9", with a larger build, broad shoulders and hips, etc. but not overweight, then a size 14 might be just right, and even too small in some cases.
And 'hi' Marty, it's good to see you!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kelly340
PeaAddict
PeaNut 84687 - 5/4/2003
Posts: 1780 Layouts: 0
Loc: Maritimes
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:14:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe 14 is the beginning of the "plus" sizes. Lots of stores don't carry over a 12, so uh, I guess.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5913 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i'm a size 12, but i'm only 5 feet tall. i definitely need to lose some weight around the middle... although, i do have a killer rack. lol
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OhSmellyCat
BucketHead
PeaNut 235294 - 12/8/2005
Posts: 731 Layouts: 2
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:21 AM
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On me it is not fat but when I was super underweight I wore a 10. I would be very happy to wear a 14 again.
I am tall and big boned.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:48 AM
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Well, that's what size I am right now.
Granted, i had a baby 5 months ago, but yes, itis a bit heavier than I would like to be only because I'm a shorty.
I"m just kinda interested in what other people consider fat.
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sandikal
Henny Button--English Lit Major
PeaNut 67765 - 2/7/2003
Posts: 18931 Layouts: 83
Loc: Fountain Valley, CA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fat is determined in a lot of ways, the least of which is clothing size.
This tool will help tell you if you are fat:
Dr. Koop Ideal Body Weight Calculator
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
charlottesweb93
AncestralPea
PeaNut 92142 - 6/22/2003
Posts: 4706 Layouts: 39
Loc: Independence, Mo
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:16:27 AM
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I believe 14 is the beginning of the "plus" sizes. Lots of stores don't carry over a 12, so uh, I guess.
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Not the stores I shop. Size 16 is where they stop.
14W is the start of plus sizes.
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m2b
PeaAddict
PeaNut 226741 - 10/11/2005
Posts: 1209 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:16:31 AM
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It depends on how tall you are
I am 5' 2" and when I was growing in to a size 8 the weight I was at at that time was considered "overweight" on the chart at the doctors office.
I knew I wasn't as small as I had used to be but I didn't consider myself overweight.
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KatieMoore
Will I ever get to Buckethead?!
PeaNut 256329 - 4/5/2006
Posts: 409 Layouts: 3
Loc: Southeast MI
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:16:31 AM
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unless your doctor says so, then I don't think so.
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AngelKriC
PeaAddict
PeaNut 215522 - 7/21/2005
Posts: 1964 Layouts: 3
Loc: Franklin, NC
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:17:06 AM
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I think it also depends on heighth and body build....
/hijack Are you the 2Peas MySpace Group person? LOL I put in a request about a week or so ago, and haven't heard back, are you not accepting new members? I can give you my myspace space LOL. Thanks! /end hijack
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rebekahjg
BucketHead
PeaNut 225625 - 10/3/2005
Posts: 567 Layouts: 17
Loc: ne oh
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:18:11 AM
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i do have a killer rack. lol
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lol..me too Heather! I think that's why I've been so hesitant to lose weight.. my girls have gotten HUGE!!
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Eeyorefanatic
PeaAddict
PeaNut 41481 - 6/28/2002
Posts: 1908 Layouts: 47
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:18:21 AM
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I think it is the biggest sixe not to be considered plus size by most stores.
However a 14 looks very different on different builds. When I wear a 14 people think Im a 10-12 (Im 5'9"
and while marilyn monroe wore a size 14, by todays sizing that would be an 8/10.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:18:45 AM
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Hi, Cathy!!!
Heather-
Yes, i do have a killer rack, but I think part of that is because I'm breastfeeding.
And whoever said you lose weight while breastfeeding was lying.
Krissy-
Yes, I am the Moderator for the MySpace group.
Check again, I accept new people like every day. It just takes me awhile, sometimes. If not, try again and I'll check it later.
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ScrapsCdn
BucketHead
PeaNut 147998 - 5/20/2004
Posts: 599 Layouts: 16
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:19:22 AM
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I'm 5'10, and in a 12 right now. I'm feeling a little large and would seriously be bummed if I was in a 14.
I like a 10, an 8 is getting tooo skinny for my height.
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hiccupp
I C-U-Pea-Pea
PeaNut 99958 - 8/5/2003
Posts: 5864 Layouts: 52
Loc: Illinois
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:20:29 AM
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well...for me its too big. I FEEL fat
I'm right between a 12/14 depending on style/brand, and its too big for ME. I'm currently 5'2 and weigh 160 (groan) Part of my problem too, is that I carry a LOT of weight in my stomach. If I could just slice it off I'd be an EASY 12.
I *should* weigh 120-125, but I feel like that'd be too small for me (I am 'big boned', wide really, I'm just not a petite build even before I gained weight) I think 130 would be good. I'd be THRILLED with 125, but that seems SO far off right now
For me...a 8/10 would be good. 10/12 is my goal for now
But I have a friend who would look TERRIBLE at a 14, she'd be way too skinny. But she's taller.
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Marzbar71
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 73461 - 3/4/2003
Posts: 2154 Layouts: 15
Loc: Chicago, IL
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:20:29 AM
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I think alot depends on your frame.
But the Marilyn argument doesn't really fly. Size 14 back in 1955 is WAY different than size 14 today. Basically, all clothes used to be sized like wedding dresses. Most clothing industries started "vanity sizing" while the bridal industry stayed the same.
Here's a link to a size 12-14 woman who was given the chance to try on a Marilyn dress:
The Marilyn Myth
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ScrapsCdn
BucketHead
PeaNut 147998 - 5/20/2004
Posts: 599 Layouts: 16
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:21:04 AM
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And whoever said you lose weight while breastfeeding was lying.
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You do use more calories, but I believe that I read that a woman who is breastfeeding will hand on to some extra body weight until she stops. I think the figure was about 5 0 10 lbs.
Just a safety measure for your body, so it can protect the supply for the baby.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5913 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:23:05 AM
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If I could just slice it off I'd be an EASY 12.
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yes. me, too!
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*HuskerFaninIL*
Mommy of LMM-O-Pea
PeaNut 51325 - 10/6/2002
Posts: 8413 Layouts: 250
Loc: Husker fan in the Illini State
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:23:50 AM
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Sandikal, that is the only BMI calcualator that I have actually liked. I really like that it asks your frame size. I am big boned and will never weigh what a normal BMI index says I should (the ones that dont take into consideration your bones).
Thanks for posting that!
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KristinL16
PeaAddict
PeaNut 142870 - 4/20/2004
Posts: 1261 Layouts: 46
Loc: MN
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:25:07 AM
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For me it would be. I am short, and according to the link posted I should weigh between 102 and 112. That is where I was at with weight in college. While I would love to be there again, I don't think it is realistic, since I don't have the time to be as active as I was when I didn't have a car, was a waitress and a hotel housekeeper, and walked 40 minutes to and from class everyday. I currently am 125 and a size 4 or 6. I do have some weight to lose in the middle after my last baby, but mostly I need to tone up. According to the website I am overweight.
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bugaboo49
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 25180 - 11/27/2001
Posts: 2490 Layouts: 3
Loc: Texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:27:06 AM
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depends, if you are 4'11, i would say yes. but if you are 5'10", no 1'm 5'3" and i wear 14. i'm fat (my own opinion). my sister in law is 5'10" and wears a 14 and is not...
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:27:07 AM
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Sarah-
OMG, you sound EXACTLY like me.
I was my skinniest at 125. I wore a 4/6 depending on what brand it was. You could totally feel my bones, though.
I am not sure if I'll ever be back there, as I had to work my butt of to get there, but I would love to be a 6/8.
I was an 8/10 right before I got preggo.
I have told myself that I'm giving me 6 months to eat whateverand not work out.
Right at the 6 month mark, i'm digging out the treadmill and starting to watch what I eat.
I only have a few weeks left.
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huskerscrapper
Looser Liberal Lair
PeaNut 49249 - 9/16/2002
Posts: 29127 Layouts: 123
Loc: Husker Nation
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:32:36 AM
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For me it is.
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kathybishop
PeaAddict
PeaNut 15394 - 5/14/2001
Posts: 1210 Layouts: 68
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:32:57 AM
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I was going to cite the ol Marilyn Monroe size - although I thought she was a size 16?
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:34:31 AM
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Krissy-
I just checked members of the MS group, and you're there.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:36:28 AM
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Yeah, I remember seeing a MM movie-was it how to marry a millionaire, perhaps??
And she was BIG!! But she still looked so good!! She had it all in the right places.
Me- I get it in my belly.
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Mrs Potato Head
AncestralPea
PeaNut 143878 - 4/26/2004
Posts: 4062 Layouts: 21
Loc: Maryland
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:39:20 AM
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Depends on the person - height, bone structure, etc. For me, at 5'3'' it's fat. And I can honestly say that cause it's the size I wear right now.
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Mary Mary
Now accepting hate mail
PeaNut 140474 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 18162 Layouts: 2
Loc: The Palm Springs of WA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:43:40 AM
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For me (5'5" and small bone structure) size 14 is overweight.
That being said, the first year after childbirth I'm lucky if I get into a 14. Don't stress too much about it. You'll have time to lose weight. Right now it's more important to focus on your little one.
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jungmama
BucketHead
PeaNut 203934 - 5/5/2005
Posts: 910 Layouts: 13
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:49:09 AM
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I am 5'1 and for me it is heavy. I wouldn't say "fat".
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Speattle
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 140392 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 5561 Layouts: 1
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:05:53 AM
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It is no secret on this board that I have been working hard (curves+WW) to shape up and slim down for DD's wedding in August.
I am 5-3 and was wearing a very tight 14 six months ago. (I had a few 16s in there too ) In my opinion, yes, I was fat. I weighed more then at any time of my life excluding my 3rd pregnancy 15 years ago (I had toxemia and blew up like a water balloon the last month). I hated pictures of myself and hated the clothes I had to wear. I have a kinda round face even when I am thin and it looked like a big old beach ball!
Again, it depends on your height and frame. Taller women can definitely carry more weight and bigger sizes. It is all a matter of proportion.
Size 14 on a 6 foot tall woman with a larger bone structure would look fine....on me it looks fat.
About the Dr.Koop weight guide thing. According to it I am 17 pounds over weight, yet according to WW I am only a few pounds into the "overweight classification".
I think that you have to remember that muscle weighs more than fat and is a lot more dense. A pound of lean muscle takes up a lot less space on a body than a pound of fat. I have definitely built up more muscle in the last 6 months, so even though I have only lost about 25 pounds, but because I am more toned and carrying more muscle, it looks like more. I'm not quite to where I want to be yet, but I sure feel and look a lot better now. If DD were getting married this weekend, I would be okay with how I look.
Plus the size 12 pants that I bought a few months ago, I have to hold them up with a BELT! (I'm waiting to see if I drop below a 10 before investing in more pants just now).
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dynalady2000
PeaFixture
PeaNut 25620 - 12/7/2001
Posts: 3438 Layouts: 38
Loc: Sweet Home Chicago
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:11:33 AM
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I'm just barely 5' so for me size 14 would mean fat. I wear mostly size 2 now, some 4.
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scrappygirl2
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 56426 - 11/20/2002
Posts: 7656 Layouts: 0
Loc: Michigan
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:11:43 AM
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I am 5'5" and a size 14 for me would mean I need to lose some weight. I look and feel my best in a 10.
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supermom_ttf
~* Anti houseguest Pea *~
PeaNut 78320 - 3/28/2003
Posts: 12797 Layouts: 50
Loc: Wisconsin
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:14:21 AM
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At 5'11" size 14 was my favorite size.
I felt the most comfortable in that size.
*sigh* oh to be that size again.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:15:59 AM
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Speattle-
I haven't been on as much, so I didn't know about your WW.
I just wanted to say "congrats!" it sound like you're doing great!!
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PeanutBirdy
PeaAddict
PeaNut 87088 - 5/20/2003
Posts: 1496 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:16:42 AM
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According to Meg Cabot..Size 12 is Not Fat
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I can't wait to read that book!
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Speattle
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 140392 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 5561 Layouts: 1
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:22:30 AM
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thanks Marty!
and congratulations on your NEW BABY!
I have 3 kids (all big now) and I breast fed them all. Kudos to you for nursing your little one.
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eight
BucketHead
PeaNut 252264 - 3/8/2006
Posts: 565 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:27:40 AM
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Yes
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LeighUTex
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 117889 - 11/29/2003
Posts: 2495 Layouts: 72
Loc: DFW
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:40:32 AM
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I'm a 14 and I'm 5'11", I hope I'm not considered FAT, I would rather be a 10, but hey I'm down from a 16!
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Speattle
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 140392 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 5561 Layouts: 1
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:42:16 AM
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I think a 14 on a 5-11 frame sounds just right.
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Annabella
start the 5 second delay now
PeaNut 43843 - 7/30/2002
Posts: 19316 Layouts: 42
Loc: East Coast
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:45:28 AM
I'm 5'6 and if I was a 14 I would call myself fat. Not there's anything wrong with being fat, but that's how I would label my body.
-Me too.
11:34 AM
Anonymous said...
You got that right. What a freak.
10:21 PM
Anonymous said...
I was hoping you'd see that thread! You never disappoint. lol
10:28 PM
Anonymous said...
Another one: MeghanR
If she posts about trying to have that baby one more time, I am going to scream. She bugs the hell out of me. How can her husband stand her?
10:29 PM
Anonymous said...
It is called having friends...try it sometime.
10:36 PM
2 Peas In My Ass said...
Anonymous said...
It is called having friends...try it sometime.
-I do have friends. Only they are people I actualy know and see and talk to over coffee. They aren't screens.
10:45 PM
Anonymous said...
A lot of Peas know each other in real life. I have met and know and socialize with at least 30.
Friends, look it up.
11:02 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves what they're lacking in their own lives that they devote so much time to a message board?
11:03 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves how much their investing in the board to be so bitter about so many people on that board?
11:03 PM
Anonymous said...
It's sad to see so many women with families spending so much time online.
11:06 PM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves what they're lacking in their own lives that they devote so much time to a message board?
11:03 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves how much their investing in the board to be so bitter about so many people on that board?
11:03 PM
_______________________________
LMAO...good one.
11:14 PM
Anonymous said...
Most women on that board are depressed. That's why they spend so much time escaping in cyberland. I guess a computer addiction is better than drugs or booze.
11:20 PM
coochie mama said...
Online friends? Maybe, maybe not.
Thousands of strangers? Definately.
11:23 PM
Anonymous said...
Do people ever ask themselves how much their investing in the board to be so bitter about so many people on that board?
11:03 PM
--------------------------------
No kidding!
11:25 PM
Anonymous said...
"most women on that board are depressed"????
Where do you get that from?
11:42 PM
Anonymous said...
Methinks you all protest too much.
The repeated comments about all the time Peas spend, all the (in your opinions, fake) friendships and connections on 2P's are obviously coming from jealousy.
Did you post and get ignored? It happens. It's okay. Just jump back in, instead of badmouthing the place and all the P's over here.
Then maybe you all can be a part of what you are so obviously jealous of. It isn't a secret clique. C'mon...you know you want to. You are already reading, so go on and post. Maybe you too can have fun on the internet rather than the tiresome virtual floggings over here.
11:48 PM
Anonymous said...
She is so freaking annoying
12:09 AM
stephanie480 said...
My condolences to paigepea's husband.
12:31 AM
Anonymous said...
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional.
12:33 AM
Anonymous said...
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional
My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs.
12:40 AM
Anonymous said...
"
My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
Which would make her about a 14.
12:41 AM
Anonymous said...
Yes, and she is fat. Any average height woman who is a size 14 is too fat.
12:44 AM
Anonymous said...
I'm about a 14 and I agree, too fat. 10/12 would be healthier.
12:47 AM
Anonymous said...
Annabella is totally fat. If she thinks she's not, she's delusional.
1:33 AM
Anonymous said...
"The repeated comments about all the time Peas spend, all the (in your opinions, fake) friendships and connections on 2P's are obviously coming from jealousy."
You think I am jealous? Get a life nut! What is there to be jealous of, please explain? Friends aren't people who you chat with online. Friends are people you invest incredible amounts of time and energy into. Friends are people that you know, not someone you are hoping is who she says she is there behind her screen. A friend is a tangible person. You might make connections here at 2 Peas but very very very real friendships. I think some people need to evaluate how much time they really spend online as compared to how much time they invest into their real lives. Ask themselves how many close personal relationships they have right there were they are. The online addicition or online lives many of the Peas have is actually quite unhealthy. Sort of like an imaginary playland filled with imaginary friends.
Jealousy? Clearly not!
5:28 AM
Anonymous said...
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional.
*snort* I was thinking the same thing.
6:14 AM
Anonymous said...
I think someone is jealous that weren't able to be part of the wonderful, caring, supportive community of women at 2peas so they have to resort to THIS. I feel so sorry for the blogger. Insert sad face here.
6:53 AM
Anonymous said...
So Annabella says that if she were size 14 she would consider herself fat. What is she then, like size 13.95? She looks like a 14 to me, spot-on. Someone is delusional.
Add me to the list that thinks she is at least a size 14. Then again.....did you see the pics from her birthday party (that she charged people money to come to) Maybe she can get away wearing a size smaller than 14 did you see the way she was poured into her clothes. She was almost hanging out at the top. Bwhahahaha
7:27 AM
Anonymous said...
Annabelle probably pays her friends to tell her she's not fat-perhaps birthday party money?
7:40 AM
Anonymous said...
I think I would rather be addicted to booze, at least it's something real and not a group of phoneys pretending to care about your feeling and your pathetic life! You know you need a life when you can't make the drive from the hospital to home without checking your messages, sad.
8:08 AM
Anonymous said...
A little irony here...you are complaining that this woman is taking a mb too seriously, yet here you are posting on a blog time after time that makes fun of and complains about the women on the mb that takes up too much of THEIR time. I mean really, before you hurl insults at me, stop and think about it for a minute. If you are here complaining about THEM, then you are being a huge ass hypocrite because you are taking plenty of your precious time to read their threads, come over here, read all of the comments, analyze the situation yourself, and then post your rude comments. And you can't tell me that you don't come back time after time to see if anyone responded-I do it and so do you. Sorry to be bitchy, but it's pretty darn plain and simple
8:22 AM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
A little irony here...you are complaining that this woman is taking a mb too seriously, yet here you are posting on a blog time after time that makes fun of and complains about the women on the mb that takes up too much of THEIR time. I mean really, before you hurl insults at me, stop and think about it for a minute. If you are here complaining about THEM, then you are being a huge ass hypocrite because you are taking plenty of your precious time to read their threads, come over here, read all of the comments, analyze the situation yourself, and then post your rude comments. And you can't tell me that you don't come back time after time to see if anyone responded-I do it and so do you. Sorry to be bitchy, but it's pretty darn plain and simple
-Last time I said something similar, because it seem to be the same complaint from the blogger over and over like a broken record, I got my hand slapped and ass spanked. I still think it's true, though. Well said.
8:25 AM
Anonymous said...
"Most women on that board are depressed. That's why they spend so much time escaping in cyberland. I guess a computer addiction is better than drugs or booze. "
Yes that's true. Since they don't have friends, the board is their only adult conversation.
8:30 AM
Anonymous said...
bekalab - you're so transparent.
8:35 AM
Anonymous Pea said...
Anonymous said...
bekalab - you're so transparent.
8:35 AM
Who are you accusing of being bekalab?
8:36 AM
Anonymous Pea said...
All of the anons posting here, I wonder how many of these threads you post on just so know one realizes you come here to bash them behind their back?
You can admit here, ya know. Since it's anon, know one will know it's you.
I don't. I am just a lurker who rarely posts.
8:40 AM
Anonymous said...
Will someone please tell Paigepea about this blog? She probably missed all the threads about it since she was on vacation. She needs to see what's being said over here.
8:41 AM
Anonymous said...
"All of the anons posting here, I wonder how many of these threads you post on just so know one realizes you come here to bash them behind their back?"
I don't, but Ashley Nicole did. Then after her name was said over here repeatedly, then all of a sudden oblio was being accused of being the blog owner when he doesn't fit the profile of the blog owner at all.
8:42 AM
Anonymous said...
I am not kidding, PaigePea acts like the only freaking mom in the world. For someone who is married to a doctor she sure does rely on the MB as her support. Constantly bitching about her peanut when she was pregnant and the help she would or would not have. Now she wont stop bitching about her daughter and her oozing nips. Give me a break. Ask a question, get some advice, get a fucking clue but do not hound us weekly with this crap.
I bet her doctor husband is sick of her. She really needs to up those pills.
8:47 AM
Just Click Me! said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:47 AM
Anonymous said...
AnnieBelle is Aunt Jamima on crack.
8:48 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
8:51 AM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
"All of the anons posting here, I wonder how many of these threads you post on just so know one realizes you come here to bash them behind their back?"
I don't, but Ashley Nicole did. Then after her name was said over here repeatedly, then all of a sudden oblio was being accused of being the blog owner when he doesn't fit the profile of the blog owner at all.
8:42 AM
I think I need further explantion or a clearer one. lol
The mud is in the way.
8:52 AM
Anon #9 said...
Anonymous said...
AnnieBelle is Aunt Jamima on crack.
8:48 AM
No she is not! She looks like howdy doody! Look up his pitcure on google and compare. It's worth it!
8:57 AM
Anonymous said...
13.95
_________________________
HILARIOUS!!!!
9:02 AM
Anonymous said...
I do agree to a point about the amount of time being spent on a message board when you have family that is wanting your attention. I think that is a valid point, and one that if Peas disagree with, they are lying. Depression is not as much part of it, as denying themselves adult conversation for the sake of saying "I going to be a SAHM" and then spend half the day on the computer? But I guess it sounds good in their head. One less reason for working Mom's to feel guilty, just remember half of the SAHM's are staring at a computer screen instead of their kids.
9:09 AM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
I do agree to a point about the amount of time being spent on a message board when you have family that is wanting your attention. I think that is a valid point, and one that if Peas disagree with, they are lying. Depression is not as much part of it, as denying themselves adult conversation for the sake of saying "I going to be a SAHM" and then spend half the day on the computer? But I guess it sounds good in their head. One less reason for working Mom's to feel guilty, just remember half of the SAHM's are staring at a computer screen instead of their kids.
9:09 AM
This is a great point. I find it amusing (and I am a SAHM) that some SAHM's are all high and mighty and thing WOHM are horrible for not raising their children (I don't agree with that) when they spend all damn day on the computer.
I know there are a hell of alot of peas children that would be much better off and get much more attention being in daycare.
I just find it ironic. They bash others, but seem to spend no time parenting their own children.
I mean being at home does not make you a great mom. Spending time with and teaching your kids makes you a great mom. That has nothing to do with spending hours on two peas.
9:13 AM
Annabella said...
Howdy Doody? Are you serious? You really think I look like Howdy Doody??
9:18 AM
Anonymous said...
ITA, and quite frankly felt myself slipping and sliding into the "vortex" of 2peas. I'm also a SAHM, and when my son was bringing things to me at the computer, and sitting down by the computer to spend time with me, I knew there was a big UH OH going on. I don't think most of these women admit to this, but they are ready willing and able to bash other parenting.
9:19 AM
Anonymous said...
This is a great point. I find it amusing (and I am a SAHM) that some SAHM's are all high and mighty and thing WOHM are horrible for not raising their children (I don't agree with that) when they spend all damn day on the computer.
*********************************
A-fucking-men
10:01 AM
Hillary said...
"My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
"Which would make her about a 14."
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
10:06 AM
Anonymous said...
Let's bash the Catholics now. . .
Catholic Teacher fired for IVF?!?
WTF its okay for their priests to molest little children and screw them up for life while they protect them from the law but they fire teachers who try to get pregnant with IVF.
10:09 AM
Anonymous said...
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
Oh pullllease! I have big boobs too. What I think is sick is the way she lets them hang out.
10:10 AM
Anonymous said...
"My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
"Which would make her about a 14."
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
10:06 AM
Well now, dumbass, it depends on how tall you are. Annabella is 5'6. That would make her fat.
10:11 AM
Anonymous said...
Hilary's intelligence is showing again. I'm Annabella's height with big boobs and at 175 I'm a 14. I haven't been size 10 since I weighed about 130-140.
10:37 AM
Anonymous said...
Well now that you've posted a picture of Howdy Doody, Annabella, I really can see the resemblence. LOL.
10:37 AM
Anonymous said...
I'm sorry but Annabella doesn't look like a size 14. She looks MUCH BIGGER. She's a fat ass. And ugly as hell.
10:39 AM
Annabella said...
Anonymous said...
Well now that you've posted a picture of Howdy Doody, Annabella, I really can see the resemblence. LOL.
10:37 AM
Glad I could help.
10:42 AM
Anonymous said...
Hillary said...
"My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
"Which would make her about a 14."
Uh not! When I weighed that much I was a size 10. I think some of you are just jealous that Anna has bigger boobs than you. :p
10:06 AM
Did you factor in height? How tall are you?
10:43 AM
Anon #9 said...
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PeaPoster
~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:11:01 AM
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Just wondering.
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charlottesweb93
AncestralPea
PeaNut 92142 - 6/22/2003
Posts: 4706 Layouts: 39
Loc: Independence, Mo
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:12:21 AM
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According to Meg Cabot..Size 12 is Not Fat.
Just a little bibliophile humor.
A lot factors into size 14 being fat. Like height, for one.
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TerriG
PeaFixture
PeaNut 28363 - 1/26/2002
Posts: 3156 Layouts: 28
Loc: Up to my eyeballs...
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:12:35 AM
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Marilyn Monroe was a size 14.
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ginacivey
♣♣♣♣♣♣♣
PeaNut 32477 - 3/14/2002
Posts: 11503 Layouts: 32
Loc: end of tornado alley
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:12:54 AM
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what makes you ask
when i was a 14 i considered myself too heavy...and probably called myself 'fat'
i think it just depends on a number of circumstances....
do you consider it fat?
gina
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Skybar
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 188727 - 1/31/2005
Posts: 5399 Layouts: 0
Loc: AZ desert
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:13:20 AM
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uhmmmm, well, not really. (that's about what I am....12-14)
depends on how tall you are?
could be worse....
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ANIPC
AncestralPea
PeaNut 16929 - 6/14/2001
Posts: 4718 Layouts: 27
Loc: My heart is in Texas but my Soul is in Philly.
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:13:50 AM
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It depends if your short or tall ...
that's one thing to consider...
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heartcat
Mrs. Pea Guilfoyle
PeaNut 51429 - 10/7/2002
Posts: 18954 Layouts: 115
Loc: Vegas, Baby!
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:14:13 AM
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It depends on a person's height and general body shape, I think.
If someone is 5' tall, and very small boned, for 'her' to wear a size 14 might mean she is overweight.
For someone who is 5'9", with a larger build, broad shoulders and hips, etc. but not overweight, then a size 14 might be just right, and even too small in some cases.
And 'hi' Marty, it's good to see you!
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Kelly340
PeaAddict
PeaNut 84687 - 5/4/2003
Posts: 1780 Layouts: 0
Loc: Maritimes
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:14:46 AM
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I believe 14 is the beginning of the "plus" sizes. Lots of stores don't carry over a 12, so uh, I guess.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5913 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:08 AM
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i'm a size 12, but i'm only 5 feet tall. i definitely need to lose some weight around the middle... although, i do have a killer rack. lol
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OhSmellyCat
BucketHead
PeaNut 235294 - 12/8/2005
Posts: 731 Layouts: 2
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:21 AM
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On me it is not fat but when I was super underweight I wore a 10. I would be very happy to wear a 14 again.
I am tall and big boned.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:48 AM
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Well, that's what size I am right now.
Granted, i had a baby 5 months ago, but yes, itis a bit heavier than I would like to be only because I'm a shorty.
I"m just kinda interested in what other people consider fat.
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sandikal
Henny Button--English Lit Major
PeaNut 67765 - 2/7/2003
Posts: 18931 Layouts: 83
Loc: Fountain Valley, CA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:15:57 AM
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Fat is determined in a lot of ways, the least of which is clothing size.
This tool will help tell you if you are fat:
Dr. Koop Ideal Body Weight Calculator
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charlottesweb93
AncestralPea
PeaNut 92142 - 6/22/2003
Posts: 4706 Layouts: 39
Loc: Independence, Mo
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:16:27 AM
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I believe 14 is the beginning of the "plus" sizes. Lots of stores don't carry over a 12, so uh, I guess.
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Not the stores I shop. Size 16 is where they stop.
14W is the start of plus sizes.
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m2b
PeaAddict
PeaNut 226741 - 10/11/2005
Posts: 1209 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:16:31 AM
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It depends on how tall you are
I am 5' 2" and when I was growing in to a size 8 the weight I was at at that time was considered "overweight" on the chart at the doctors office.
I knew I wasn't as small as I had used to be but I didn't consider myself overweight.
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KatieMoore
Will I ever get to Buckethead?!
PeaNut 256329 - 4/5/2006
Posts: 409 Layouts: 3
Loc: Southeast MI
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:16:31 AM
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unless your doctor says so, then I don't think so.
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AngelKriC
PeaAddict
PeaNut 215522 - 7/21/2005
Posts: 1964 Layouts: 3
Loc: Franklin, NC
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:17:06 AM
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I think it also depends on heighth and body build....
/hijack Are you the 2Peas MySpace Group person? LOL I put in a request about a week or so ago, and haven't heard back, are you not accepting new members? I can give you my myspace space LOL. Thanks! /end hijack
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rebekahjg
BucketHead
PeaNut 225625 - 10/3/2005
Posts: 567 Layouts: 17
Loc: ne oh
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:18:11 AM
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i do have a killer rack. lol
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lol..me too Heather! I think that's why I've been so hesitant to lose weight.. my girls have gotten HUGE!!
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Eeyorefanatic
PeaAddict
PeaNut 41481 - 6/28/2002
Posts: 1908 Layouts: 47
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:18:21 AM
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I think it is the biggest sixe not to be considered plus size by most stores.
However a 14 looks very different on different builds. When I wear a 14 people think Im a 10-12 (Im 5'9"
and while marilyn monroe wore a size 14, by todays sizing that would be an 8/10.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:18:45 AM
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Hi, Cathy!!!
Heather-
Yes, i do have a killer rack, but I think part of that is because I'm breastfeeding.
And whoever said you lose weight while breastfeeding was lying.
Krissy-
Yes, I am the Moderator for the MySpace group.
Check again, I accept new people like every day. It just takes me awhile, sometimes. If not, try again and I'll check it later.
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ScrapsCdn
BucketHead
PeaNut 147998 - 5/20/2004
Posts: 599 Layouts: 16
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:19:22 AM
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I'm 5'10, and in a 12 right now. I'm feeling a little large and would seriously be bummed if I was in a 14.
I like a 10, an 8 is getting tooo skinny for my height.
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hiccupp
I C-U-Pea-Pea
PeaNut 99958 - 8/5/2003
Posts: 5864 Layouts: 52
Loc: Illinois
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:20:29 AM
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well...for me its too big. I FEEL fat
I'm right between a 12/14 depending on style/brand, and its too big for ME. I'm currently 5'2 and weigh 160 (groan) Part of my problem too, is that I carry a LOT of weight in my stomach. If I could just slice it off I'd be an EASY 12.
I *should* weigh 120-125, but I feel like that'd be too small for me (I am 'big boned', wide really, I'm just not a petite build even before I gained weight) I think 130 would be good. I'd be THRILLED with 125, but that seems SO far off right now
For me...a 8/10 would be good. 10/12 is my goal for now
But I have a friend who would look TERRIBLE at a 14, she'd be way too skinny. But she's taller.
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Marzbar71
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 73461 - 3/4/2003
Posts: 2154 Layouts: 15
Loc: Chicago, IL
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:20:29 AM
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I think alot depends on your frame.
But the Marilyn argument doesn't really fly. Size 14 back in 1955 is WAY different than size 14 today. Basically, all clothes used to be sized like wedding dresses. Most clothing industries started "vanity sizing" while the bridal industry stayed the same.
Here's a link to a size 12-14 woman who was given the chance to try on a Marilyn dress:
The Marilyn Myth
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ScrapsCdn
BucketHead
PeaNut 147998 - 5/20/2004
Posts: 599 Layouts: 16
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:21:04 AM
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And whoever said you lose weight while breastfeeding was lying.
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You do use more calories, but I believe that I read that a woman who is breastfeeding will hand on to some extra body weight until she stops. I think the figure was about 5 0 10 lbs.
Just a safety measure for your body, so it can protect the supply for the baby.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5913 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:23:05 AM
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If I could just slice it off I'd be an EASY 12.
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yes. me, too!
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*HuskerFaninIL*
Mommy of LMM-O-Pea
PeaNut 51325 - 10/6/2002
Posts: 8413 Layouts: 250
Loc: Husker fan in the Illini State
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:23:50 AM
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Sandikal, that is the only BMI calcualator that I have actually liked. I really like that it asks your frame size. I am big boned and will never weigh what a normal BMI index says I should (the ones that dont take into consideration your bones).
Thanks for posting that!
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KristinL16
PeaAddict
PeaNut 142870 - 4/20/2004
Posts: 1261 Layouts: 46
Loc: MN
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:25:07 AM
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For me it would be. I am short, and according to the link posted I should weigh between 102 and 112. That is where I was at with weight in college. While I would love to be there again, I don't think it is realistic, since I don't have the time to be as active as I was when I didn't have a car, was a waitress and a hotel housekeeper, and walked 40 minutes to and from class everyday. I currently am 125 and a size 4 or 6. I do have some weight to lose in the middle after my last baby, but mostly I need to tone up. According to the website I am overweight.
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bugaboo49
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 25180 - 11/27/2001
Posts: 2490 Layouts: 3
Loc: Texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:27:06 AM
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depends, if you are 4'11, i would say yes. but if you are 5'10", no 1'm 5'3" and i wear 14. i'm fat (my own opinion). my sister in law is 5'10" and wears a 14 and is not...
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:27:07 AM
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Sarah-
OMG, you sound EXACTLY like me.
I was my skinniest at 125. I wore a 4/6 depending on what brand it was. You could totally feel my bones, though.
I am not sure if I'll ever be back there, as I had to work my butt of to get there, but I would love to be a 6/8.
I was an 8/10 right before I got preggo.
I have told myself that I'm giving me 6 months to eat whateverand not work out.
Right at the 6 month mark, i'm digging out the treadmill and starting to watch what I eat.
I only have a few weeks left.
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huskerscrapper
Looser Liberal Lair
PeaNut 49249 - 9/16/2002
Posts: 29127 Layouts: 123
Loc: Husker Nation
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:32:36 AM
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For me it is.
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kathybishop
PeaAddict
PeaNut 15394 - 5/14/2001
Posts: 1210 Layouts: 68
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:32:57 AM
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I was going to cite the ol Marilyn Monroe size - although I thought she was a size 16?
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:34:31 AM
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Krissy-
I just checked members of the MS group, and you're there.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:36:28 AM
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Yeah, I remember seeing a MM movie-was it how to marry a millionaire, perhaps??
And she was BIG!! But she still looked so good!! She had it all in the right places.
Me- I get it in my belly.
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Mrs Potato Head
AncestralPea
PeaNut 143878 - 4/26/2004
Posts: 4062 Layouts: 21
Loc: Maryland
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:39:20 AM
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Depends on the person - height, bone structure, etc. For me, at 5'3'' it's fat. And I can honestly say that cause it's the size I wear right now.
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Mary Mary
Now accepting hate mail
PeaNut 140474 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 18162 Layouts: 2
Loc: The Palm Springs of WA
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:43:40 AM
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For me (5'5" and small bone structure) size 14 is overweight.
That being said, the first year after childbirth I'm lucky if I get into a 14. Don't stress too much about it. You'll have time to lose weight. Right now it's more important to focus on your little one.
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jungmama
BucketHead
PeaNut 203934 - 5/5/2005
Posts: 910 Layouts: 13
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:49:09 AM
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I am 5'1 and for me it is heavy. I wouldn't say "fat".
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Speattle
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 140392 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 5561 Layouts: 1
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:05:53 AM
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It is no secret on this board that I have been working hard (curves+WW) to shape up and slim down for DD's wedding in August.
I am 5-3 and was wearing a very tight 14 six months ago. (I had a few 16s in there too ) In my opinion, yes, I was fat. I weighed more then at any time of my life excluding my 3rd pregnancy 15 years ago (I had toxemia and blew up like a water balloon the last month). I hated pictures of myself and hated the clothes I had to wear. I have a kinda round face even when I am thin and it looked like a big old beach ball!
Again, it depends on your height and frame. Taller women can definitely carry more weight and bigger sizes. It is all a matter of proportion.
Size 14 on a 6 foot tall woman with a larger bone structure would look fine....on me it looks fat.
About the Dr.Koop weight guide thing. According to it I am 17 pounds over weight, yet according to WW I am only a few pounds into the "overweight classification".
I think that you have to remember that muscle weighs more than fat and is a lot more dense. A pound of lean muscle takes up a lot less space on a body than a pound of fat. I have definitely built up more muscle in the last 6 months, so even though I have only lost about 25 pounds, but because I am more toned and carrying more muscle, it looks like more. I'm not quite to where I want to be yet, but I sure feel and look a lot better now. If DD were getting married this weekend, I would be okay with how I look.
Plus the size 12 pants that I bought a few months ago, I have to hold them up with a BELT! (I'm waiting to see if I drop below a 10 before investing in more pants just now).
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dynalady2000
PeaFixture
PeaNut 25620 - 12/7/2001
Posts: 3438 Layouts: 38
Loc: Sweet Home Chicago
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:11:33 AM
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I'm just barely 5' so for me size 14 would mean fat. I wear mostly size 2 now, some 4.
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scrappygirl2
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 56426 - 11/20/2002
Posts: 7656 Layouts: 0
Loc: Michigan
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:11:43 AM
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I am 5'5" and a size 14 for me would mean I need to lose some weight. I look and feel my best in a 10.
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supermom_ttf
~* Anti houseguest Pea *~
PeaNut 78320 - 3/28/2003
Posts: 12797 Layouts: 50
Loc: Wisconsin
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:14:21 AM
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At 5'11" size 14 was my favorite size.
I felt the most comfortable in that size.
*sigh* oh to be that size again.
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~*Marty*~
AncestralPea
PeaNut 178147 - 11/21/2004
Posts: 4126 Layouts: 41
Loc: texas
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:15:59 AM
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Speattle-
I haven't been on as much, so I didn't know about your WW.
I just wanted to say "congrats!" it sound like you're doing great!!
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PeanutBirdy
PeaAddict
PeaNut 87088 - 5/20/2003
Posts: 1496 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:16:42 AM
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According to Meg Cabot..Size 12 is Not Fat
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I can't wait to read that book!
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Speattle
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 140392 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 5561 Layouts: 1
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:22:30 AM
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thanks Marty!
and congratulations on your NEW BABY!
I have 3 kids (all big now) and I breast fed them all. Kudos to you for nursing your little one.
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eight
BucketHead
PeaNut 252264 - 3/8/2006
Posts: 565 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:27:40 AM
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Yes
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LeighUTex
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 117889 - 11/29/2003
Posts: 2495 Layouts: 72
Loc: DFW
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:40:32 AM
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I'm a 14 and I'm 5'11", I hope I'm not considered FAT, I would rather be a 10, but hey I'm down from a 16!
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Speattle
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 140392 - 4/5/2004
Posts: 5561 Layouts: 1
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:42:16 AM
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I think a 14 on a 5-11 frame sounds just right.
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Annabella
start the 5 second delay now
PeaNut 43843 - 7/30/2002
Posts: 19316 Layouts: 42
Loc: East Coast
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:45:28 AM
I'm 5'6 and if I was a 14 I would call myself fat. Not there's anything wrong with being fat, but that's how I would label my body.
-Me too.
11:34 AM
I'm can't stop laughing since I read Annabella's comments about "if I were a size 14." Girlfriend, you are AT LEAST a size 14 if not larger. By your own definition you are FAT!
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Catholic Teacher fired for IVF?!? Forum: NSBR Board
Posted:5/11/2006 7:49:32 PM
Post Posted by:
tupperwarepam
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PeaFixture
PeaNut 170575 - 10/1/2004
Posts: 3051 Layouts: 0
Loc: niagara region ontario
Posted: 5/11/2006 7:49:32 PM
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I just heard a snip-it on the TV. Has anyone else heard about this???
She was fired from her post in a Catholic school. She is now fighting the decision of the Church.
I *think* I heard the Priest say "Not a child, a product."
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Beanbean
~Pithy Pea~
PeaNut 50539 - 9/28/2002
Posts: 24467 Layouts: 0
Loc: Colorado
Posted: 5/11/2006 7:50:29 PM
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I haven't heard this. If it is true, it's not right.
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frogfan
AncestralPea
PeaNut 115033 - 11/8/2003
Posts: 4428 Layouts: 38
Loc: Where in the world is???
Posted: 5/11/2006 7:51:24 PM
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there's a video on CNN.com, but I can't get it to pull up
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JoanieS
~Reci-PEA Chick~
PeaNut 20507 - 8/25/2001
Posts: 12866 Layouts: 62
Loc: South Jersey
Posted: 5/11/2006 7:51:32 PM
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If it is true, it's not right.
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The Catholic church does not believe in IVF. It was in her contract that she signed. She violated her contract.
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Chopped Liver *Ü*
Sam I Mam
PeaNut 43514 - 7/25/2002
Posts: 23682 Layouts: 42
Loc: South Jersey
Posted: 5/11/2006 7:52:35 PM
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It's a private school. I guess she probably had something in her contract about it.
I totally disagree with the whole thing, but IT IS their right.
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~*~Kim~*~
I believe
PeaNut 80193 - 4/7/2003
Posts: 11333 Layouts: 158
Loc: N. Indiana
Posted: 5/11/2006 7:55:11 PM
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The church has the right to form boundaries and rules.
The school has a right to form their contracts in compliance to those teachings.
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tupperwarepam
PeaFixture
PeaNut 170575 - 10/1/2004
Posts: 3051 Layouts: 0
Loc: niagara region ontario
Posted: 5/11/2006 7:55:29 PM
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So, the Catholic Church does not believe in IVF??
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cmgpea
BucketHead
PeaNut 169075 - 9/22/2004
Posts: 595 Layouts: 5
Loc: Pennsylvania
Posted: 5/11/2006 7:56:28 PM
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I haven't heard about this, but sadly, I think there are some Catholics out there who would agree. I am Catholic, and I think that it is okay. My mom is an infertility nurse now, and she is a very good Catholic. As she sees it, she is helping to bring life into the world.
A friend of mine actually got lectured by a doc that she was a "bad Catholic" for seeking infertility treatments. I felt so bad for her. I wanted to ream that doc a new one.
I hope, if it is true, that the teacher wins her appeal.
God Bless,
Colleen
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Anewday
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 246606 - 1/31/2006
Posts: 2473 Layouts: 13
Posted: 5/11/2006 7:56:35 PM
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I just don't understand why people choose to work for a religious organization and then get all pissy and want to fight that religious organization when they don't like the rules/tenets of the religious organization.
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SockMonkey
Yah-Who Big Mouth
PeaNut 56220 - 11/18/2002
Posts: 17223 Layouts: 171
Loc: Illinois
Posted: 5/11/2006 7:56:57 PM
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Screw that. I wouldn't teach in that school anyway.
Besides, how did they even find out HOW she got pregnant??
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Beanbean
~Pithy Pea~
PeaNut 50539 - 9/28/2002
Posts: 24467 Layouts: 0
Loc: Colorado
Posted: 5/11/2006 7:57:21 PM
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If she violated her contract, that's a different story. The school has the right to terminate. I still don't agree with the policy. I guess it's a good thing I'm not Catholic.
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tupperwarepam
PeaFixture
PeaNut 170575 - 10/1/2004
Posts: 3051 Layouts: 0
Loc: niagara region ontario
Posted: 5/11/2006 7:59:33 PM
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Hey, Bean I agree.
But, my question is do Catholics believe in IVF as a general rule. Or, is it the more devout Catholics?
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agengr2004
PeaC Gamer
PeaNut 132136 - 2/20/2004
Posts: 5073 Layouts: 3
Loc: Home of the 3 time NBA champion Spurs!
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:00:57 PM
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Screw that. I wouldn't teach in that school anyway.
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I agree. I would not work somewhere where your reproductive rights are compromised. It's none of their business how her child was conceived.
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Stinky Rose
SUIT UP!!!!!!
PeaNut 93427 - 6/30/2003
Posts: 13268 Layouts: 18
Loc: Cowtown, TX
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:02:32 PM
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I just thought this was cute:
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a very good Catholic
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:03:11 PM
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I *think* I heard the Priest say "Not a child, a product."
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Interesting. A teacher gets fired for this, yet the pedophile Priests just get shipped around and protected [well, at least in the past]. Trying to have a baby in an unconventional way is worse than molestation apparently.
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SockMonkey
Yah-Who Big Mouth
PeaNut 56220 - 11/18/2002
Posts: 17223 Layouts: 171
Loc: Illinois
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:04:52 PM
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Interesting. A teacher gets fired for this, yet the pedophile Priests just get shipped around and protected [well, at least in the past]. Trying to have a baby in an unconventional way is worse than molestation apparently.
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I have to say that crossed my mind.
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cmgpea
BucketHead
PeaNut 169075 - 9/22/2004
Posts: 595 Layouts: 5
Loc: Pennsylvania
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:06:12 PM
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I must say that I am NO expert in Canon law here, but if I remember correctly, the Catholic church does not approve of IVF because some of the embryos which do not get used are destroyed. They believe this is like "playing God" and not keeping all human life sacred.
Well, the doc my mom works for believes all life is sacred. They had a virus strike their lab and every single viable embryo was lost. To him, he had just lost an entire ward of patients. He was beyond devastated.
It sort of begs the question of how much medical intervention should we have? Should we avoid treating cancer because it would go against God's will? Should we not perform life saving transplants?
While several Catholics may disagree with me, I think that the good Lord in His wisdom helps people like my mom's boss find ways to create families. He led us to discover some of the mysteries behind the creation of life, and as my mom is fond of saying, "We can do everything, even put the sperm right into the egg, but it's still up to God what happens next."
That's just my two cents.
God Bless,
Colleen
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Skybar
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 188727 - 1/31/2005
Posts: 5399 Layouts: 0
Loc: AZ desert
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:07:49 PM
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not sure if it's the same one...but our news had one they titled ' teacher loses job because she has twins' -
ah -no, not because she had 'twins'!
I thought she was unmarried. Either way (or both) if she signed the contract - to bad for her.
she should suck up and take it!
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Cara in TX
Call it like I Pea it
PeaNut 198220 - 3/27/2005
Posts: 9290 Layouts: 3
Loc: Outside Houston
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:08:03 PM
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Besides, how did they even find out HOW she got pregnant??
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Insurance?
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t_4_2
BucketHead
PeaNut 236729 - 12/15/2005
Posts: 653 Layouts: 15
Loc: New York
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:09:00 PM
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So, they basically are saying that it's better to have her lose her income to give the child a decent life, not to mention that perhaps she had medical benefits, than it is to stick to a rule. Ughhh.... if I were this woman I would show up everyday asking for financial help in raising her child.
I did find this on the internet:
Therefore, the Catholic Church can support the use of Artificial Insemination which does not create spare embryos. IVF however, is an acceptable practice if only the number of eggs are fertilised which are to be replaced in the mother. We cannot support creating spare embryos which are later destroyed. Life begins at conception and we must respect that as we develop new techniques of helping people like yourselves.
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Chopped Liver *Ü*
Sam I Mam
PeaNut 43514 - 7/25/2002
Posts: 23682 Layouts: 42
Loc: South Jersey
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:09:08 PM
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I must say that I am NO expert in Canon law here, but if I remember correctly, the Catholic church does not approve of IVF because some of the embryos which do not get used are destroyed. They believe this is like "playing God" and not keeping all human life sacred.
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That makes sense. I don't agree, but I get where the idea comes from. Thanks.
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kerried
BucketHead
PeaNut 78744 - 3/30/2003
Posts: 737 Layouts: 3
Loc: Bothell, WA
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:09:14 PM
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I believe the Official Catholic Church's problem with IVF is that when eggs are extracted and mixed with sperm, life is created. Sometimes not all the "lives" are implanted and the church believe that those "lives" have souls and if they are thrown out or wasted then it is equivalent to an abortion.
I know that our priest said that the church doesn't care about people taking fertility drugs like clomid or whatever but when they take more "extreme" measures the church does not agree with this.
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Anewday
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 246606 - 1/31/2006
Posts: 2473 Layouts: 13
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:11:20 PM
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I believe the position of the Catholic Church to be absurd on many issues. However, they are still entitled to make and enforce the rules by which they run their own institutions, including their schools.
Anyone who chooses to work for them should expect to be bound by their rules and decisions about those rules.
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MellyW
BucketHead
PeaNut 181911 - 12/23/2004
Posts: 529 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:12:32 PM
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While I find it crazy, if it was in her contract, then, sorry, you knew the terms
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kerried
BucketHead
PeaNut 78744 - 3/30/2003
Posts: 737 Layouts: 3
Loc: Bothell, WA
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:13:28 PM
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oops, posted about the same time but a little later.
Wanted to add that I know when I was in grade school at a Catholic School we had an unmarried teacher who hooked up with another teacher and she got pregnant and both teachers were fired because part of their contract said they would uphold and follow the values of the Catholic Church which teaches that sex outside of marriage is wrong. Both went on to get jobs at the public Jr. High.
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t_4_2
BucketHead
PeaNut 236729 - 12/15/2005
Posts: 653 Layouts: 15
Loc: New York
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:19:00 PM
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I guess I would have more faith in rules being upheld if they were also upheld in the cases of priests that break them. I can't say this for a fact, but I would bet that each of the priests that were charged as pedophiles still have their retirement and health insurance that is given to priests. If I'm wrong about that that I will stand corrected.
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:21:42 PM
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both teachers were fired because part of their contract said they would uphold and follow the values of the Catholic Church
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Do the Priests sign a contract to uphold the values of the Church?
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AshleyKate
PeaNut
PeaNut 258274 - 4/20/2006
Posts: 80 Layouts: 0
Loc: New Hampshire
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:22:25 PM
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In my head I'm hearing Monty Python...
"Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great....if a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate!"
I'm Catholic, and I had a lot of trouble TTC. We ended up not having to use In-Vitro, but I am certainly not AGAINST it. However, I would have insisted that every egg harvested be implanted, no matter the number of possible children that may have involved.
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Anewday
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 246606 - 1/31/2006
Posts: 2473 Layouts: 13
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:23:16 PM
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Priests take vows. They are not legally binding contracts. Therefore, the Church is free to deal with violations of those vows as they see fit.
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:25:43 PM
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Ah vows. I guess those aren't legally binding to the Church. I thought they must've had a "relocation clause" in their contracts.
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t_4_2
BucketHead
PeaNut 236729 - 12/15/2005
Posts: 653 Layouts: 15
Loc: New York
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:26:55 PM
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That's a good point Lauren, the vows are treated differently than a contract.
It's so amazing though, isn't it, that what is "seen" by the church is more important that what is "done" (e.g. perhaps half the lay teachers are cheating on their taxes, etc.., but the single pregnant lady gets hung out to dry).
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Anewday
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 246606 - 1/31/2006
Posts: 2473 Layouts: 13
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:27:05 PM
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Sasha, I don't agree with the actions taken by the church. However, they are a private religious entity. They're not held to the same rules as a government entity.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:27:09 PM
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It clearly states in her contract that she would live by the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Regardless of whether or not you agree with those teachings... she signed that contract of her own free will and is thusly bound by it's regulations.
For those of you who wonder what the Catholic teachings on this are... there is a nice 'rule of thumb' from the USCCB
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Any procedure which assists marital intercourse in reaching its procreative potential is moral
Procedures which add a "third party" into the act of conception, or which substitute a laboratory procedure for intercourse, are not acceptable.
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You may agree or disagree with it... but if you disagree, then don't sign a contract that says you will abide by it.
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:30:59 PM
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Sasha, I don't agree with the actions taken by the church. However, they are a private religious entity. They're not held to the same rules as a government entity.
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I hear you, Lauren. I do agree, sign and contract and live by it. No one is forcing her to work there.
But, argh, the pedophile Priests and the treatment of them just still riles me. So many children needlessly violated because they protected their own.
Okay, I'll get off the soapbox and bow off this thread.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:31:18 PM
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I agree mapchic. It is what it is. That's the teaching. If you don't like it, don't sign a contract saying that you will uphold it.
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blackberry lou
ShapooPEA! ShapooPEA!
PeaNut 100300 - 8/6/2003
Posts: 5962 Layouts: 97
Loc: where the airforce sends us
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:32:23 PM
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What about the fact that even during intercourse embryos can be created that never implant and never turn out to be anything?
I guess I figure that if God wants you to have a baby, you'll have a baby, and if you're not supposed to, no amount of IVF tries is going to get you there. I've always figured science was a gift from god to us to help us take care of ourselves. I've always believed that He steps in, but only after we've done all we can.
Catholoicism confuses me.
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t_4_2
BucketHead
PeaNut 236729 - 12/15/2005
Posts: 653 Layouts: 15
Loc: New York
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:36:00 PM
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Lou, I agree with you on this. I'm Catholic and very confused as I sit here and look at a pic on the wall of my nephew Brian, conceived thru IVF. Well at least the priest that baptised him didn't ask how he got here, so there's something I guess.
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Burning Feather
Heiress to the UNO fortune
PeaNut 158336 - 7/19/2004
Posts: 8722 Layouts: 2
Loc: Are you kidding? I have two dogs. I'm behind the pooper scooper.
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:38:28 PM
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For the record, I don't believe that her employer asked. I believe she told them. She probably should have kept her trap shut about it and it likely wouldn't have been questioned. Some stuff just doesn't need to be shared with everyone within earshot.
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Chartreuse Peas
PeaAddict
PeaNut 236442 - 12/14/2005
Posts: 1612 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:39:38 PM
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Whoops, I didn't see this thread and posted this on the duplicate thread...
It's likely she signed a contract that stated she would follow Church teachings. IVF is against those, and that is a well-known teaching.
Again, for me, it's a case of - I don't agree with the Church's teaching, but I sure support their right to have contracts. She entered into it willingly, she broke it willingly - she should be willing to accept the consequences. Maybe a Catholic school isn't the place for her.
I don't agree with the Church's teaching, and I am glad she's been able to conceive. But I do support the private employer's right to set the terms of employment, have them agreed upon, and enforce them.
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SockMonkey
Yah-Who Big Mouth
PeaNut 56220 - 11/18/2002
Posts: 17223 Layouts: 171
Loc: Illinois
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:41:11 PM
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She probably should have kept her trap shut about it and it likely wouldn't have been questioned.
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Wasn't it better for her to be honest about it, though?
I don't know. I feel that they were within their rights to terminate her if the contract stipulated that she could not use IVF, but jeez.
Talk about a horrible policy. I know for a fact that not all of my teachers at my school were practicing Catholics, and it was NEVER questioned. I don't think my school involved themselves in people's personal lives; they were there to teach the subject areas!
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:47:41 PM
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Catholoicism confuses me.
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I am Catholic and it confuses me too!
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Well at least the priest that baptised him didn't ask how he got here
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It wouldn't have stopped the priest from baptisng him. After all he is not responsible for the IVF... It might have caused the priest to suggest confession before the parents took Communion... because the sin is theirs - not his.
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Nightowl scrapper
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 103889 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 2509 Layouts: 0
Loc: California
Posted: 5/11/2006 8:56:58 PM
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I'm not sure what treatment of pedophile priests has to do with requiring a teacher to fulfill the requirements of her contract. Should they not enforce ANYTHING because SOME leaders foolishly and immorally and illegally did not hold priests to a high standard? I guess some can't resist bringing that into a thread about disagreeable Catholic teachings.
She told her boss because she had to be away from work for some of the procedure. I imagine it would be hard to do IVF and show up for school 5 days a week as usual.
It is sad, because the basic presumption behind the rules didn't happen -- it was a married couple, and no embryos were destroyed. However, if you actually read the position by the Vatican, it makes sense in keeping with other teachings about marriage, procreation, and the value of life. It's on another thread that starts "S/O".
Some times consistency in teachings is hard to accept, but I think they are being consistent, and if you don't like the rule you shouldn't agree to follow it as a term of employment. I don't understand why she doesn't go find another job. She's going to a Lutheran church.
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t_4_2
BucketHead
PeaNut 236729 - 12/15/2005
Posts: 653 Layouts: 15
Loc: New York
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:00:15 PM
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It wouldn't have stopped the priest from baptisng him. After all he is not responsible for the IVF... It might have caused the priest to suggest confession before the parents took Communion... because the sin is theirs - not his.
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I don't even have the heart to tell them what I've learned here tonight. I'm 99% certain they do not even know this.
When you bring a child into this world, (something the priests do not experience), it involves complicated emotions, it's something that you can't ask a parent to ask forgiveness for.
When there are so many babies born addicted to drugs, or just plain unwanted, to turn to parents who have chosen IVF as a means of fulfilling the dream of having a child, and tell them that they have sinned, it seems strange. I also have to add one more thing, you can't imagine how hard they prayed it would work, and asked us as family to pray for them. I have to believe our prayers were answered, regardless of what men here on earth are coming up with.
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:12:12 PM
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I'm not sure what treatment of pedophile priests has to do with requiring a teacher to fulfill the requirements of her contract. Should they not enforce ANYTHING because SOME leaders foolishly and immorally and illegally did not hold priests to a high standard? I guess some can't resist bringing that into a thread about disagreeable Catholic teachings.
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I'd admit, it is hard for me to think of anything other than pedophile priests when I hear of situations like this. I agree with the concept of she should be fired, she didn't withhold the contract.
However, I have a hard time getting past the way the church/schools have turned a blind eye at molestation and subjected numerous other children to being molested because they simply hushed hushed and relocated the priests.
I think it's somewhat relevant in this discussion here. Pedophile priests get moved and sent to another church and teachers get fired. Rape = relocation, IVF = firing.
Now, I know that the church is trying to make amends for their horrible handling of the molestation but with so many childrens lives that were ruined by the Church looking away it makes it hard for me to take seriously when they lay down what is moral.
Okay, sorry. Maybe this time I'll stay off this thread. I do not mean to insult the Catholics of the board. I am disagreeing with the Church.
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JuniperJennifer
AncestralPea
PeaNut 128304 - 2/1/2004
Posts: 4378 Layouts: 114
Loc: USA
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:13:07 PM
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if she does not believe in the Catholic teachings then she should not be teaching at a Catholic school period.
uh maybe people who don't agree with the Catholic teachings shouldn't be Catholic?!
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:18:04 PM
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I don't even have the heart to tell them what I've learned here tonight. I'm 99% certain they do not even know this.
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Part of what makes a mortal sin is knowledge that what you are doing is in fact a sin. If they truly didn't know then they can take comfort in the fact that they weren't actually committing a sin.
However, once they know, it is much different if they again TTC by IVF.
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Constance
UUPea
PeaNut 2056 - 12/1/1999
Posts: 5666 Layouts: 2
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:24:14 PM
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Serious question. If a teacher practices birth control, can he/she be fired from teaching at a Catholic school? Seems like that would create a big drain on the teaching population for those schools, since the vast majority of Catholics I know practice birth control.
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t_4_2
BucketHead
PeaNut 236729 - 12/15/2005
Posts: 653 Layouts: 15
Loc: New York
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:29:40 PM
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Jen M- I'm learning alot tonight! Thanks for your post because I truly am sure they were not aware of this. You would have to "know" them, whenever we pass churches she makes the sign of the Cross, she always gives Bibles to new brides as part of her presents, just little things. I didn't know that about a sin being "different" when you are not aware of it, thanks for letting me know.
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scrapperwithaview
"Pea"nko, Commie, Liberal
PeaNut 108815 - 9/28/2003
Posts: 9179 Layouts: 0
Loc: FL
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:33:30 PM
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Please can I ask that people stop saying on who should or shouldn't be a Catholic.
Just because some of us don't agree with 100% of the teachings, doesn't mean we don't agree with the foundation of the Church and doesn't make us "bad" Catholics.
That is between us and the Lord and no one else.
I have seen that said here and the other thread and it is very upsetting.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:35:25 PM
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I didn't know that about a sin being "different" when you are not aware of it
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Oh, that's such a huge part of it! In order for a sin to be mortal - it has to be about a serious matter, done with full consent, and be known to be wrong. Any one of these missing and it's not a mortal sin.
For example, up until about 15 years ago I had no idea that Catholics weren't supposed to take communion outside the Catholic Church. I had gone to a Lutheran church a few times before that and had taken communion. Was I sinning? No, because I truly had no knowledge of the rules. If I do it now, it's a different story.
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PeaPoster
Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:38:49 PM
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Please can I ask that people stop saying on who should or shouldn't be a Catholic.
Just because some of us don't agree with 100% of the teachings, doesn't mean we don't agree with the foundation of the Church and doesn't make us "bad" Catholics.
That is between us and the Lord and no one else.
I have seen that said here and the other thread and it is very upsetting.
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I completely agree.
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MNBonnie
The Daily Pea with Jon Stewart
PeaNut 64193 - 1/22/2003
Posts: 7013 Layouts: 16
Loc: Peaing in my Crocs
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:41:13 PM
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It's a private school. I guess she probably had something in her contract about it.
I totally disagree with the whole thing, but IT IS their right.
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ITA with Sam. I completely disgree with the Catholic churches stand on IVF or birth control, but they have a right to hire people who follow their churches guidelines and fire them that disregard them. One step further, they have EVERY right to fire someone who violates their contract. I saw her interviewed yesterday and she said she wasn't aware of the churches stand on IVF when she told her boss about her treatments. Umm, that's her responsibility to learn that being that she works for them.
Forcing a church to hire people who live against their beliefs in the interest of civil rights, fair employment practices, etc. is IMO bridging the gap too closely in the separation of church and state. Even if she didn't have a contract with them, I still think churches should be allowed to hire or fire people based on their beliefs. I know that is crazy talk from a liberal like me, but that's the way I feel.
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Anewday
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 246606 - 1/31/2006
Posts: 2473 Layouts: 13
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:42:37 PM
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I guess I don't understand the idea that if one does not agree with the teachings of the Catholic church, one is still a Catholic. Is it merely because a person calls themselves a Catholic?
The way I see it, if an individual doesn't subscribe to the tenets of Catholicism, then one may be Christian (if he is a follower of Christ) but not a Catholic.
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MNBonnie
The Daily Pea with Jon Stewart
PeaNut 64193 - 1/22/2003
Posts: 7013 Layouts: 16
Loc: Peaing in my Crocs
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:42:52 PM
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I must say that I am NO expert in Canon law here, but if I remember correctly, the Catholic church does not approve of IVF because some of the embryos which do not get used are destroyed. They believe this is like "playing God" and not keeping all human life sacred.
Well, the doc my mom works for believes all life is sacred. They had a virus strike their lab and every single viable embryo was lost. To him, he had just lost an entire ward of patients. He was beyond devastated.
It sort of begs the question of how much medical intervention should we have? Should we avoid treating cancer because it would go against God's will? Should we not perform life saving transplants?
While several Catholics may disagree with me, I think that the good Lord in His wisdom helps people like my mom's boss find ways to create families. He led us to discover some of the mysteries behind the creation of life, and as my mom is fond of saying, "We can do everything, even put the sperm right into the egg, but it's still up to God what happens next."
That's just my two cents.
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Exactly my own personal thoughts. Well said!
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Burning Feather
Heiress to the UNO fortune
PeaNut 158336 - 7/19/2004
Posts: 8722 Layouts: 2
Loc: Are you kidding? I have two dogs. I'm behind the pooper scooper.
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:44:06 PM
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Just because some of us don't agree with 100% of the teachings, doesn't mean we don't agree with the foundation of the Church and doesn't make us "bad" Catholics
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But there is a huge difference between personal choices you make with your faith and signing a contractural agreement to do, or not do, something - - in this case, she agreed to follow the teachings of the Catholic church. That goes beyond just being a Catholic.
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scrapperwithaview
"Pea"nko, Commie, Liberal
PeaNut 108815 - 9/28/2003
Posts: 9179 Layouts: 0
Loc: FL
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:46:28 PM
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Lauren, I have searched for many years for the "perfect" religion for me, one that I can agree with 100%, but there isn't one.
Catholicism is what I was raised with and the one I feel most at home with though. I don't agree with all the teachings, but I do agree with the major foundation of the Church and try to be the best member I can, just like anyone else.
I also am not a Bible-litaralist, so some might say I am not really a Christian either, but for me, my relationship with Christ is personal and I do the best I can and constantly re-evaluate it and change and grow.
I don't have a problem with my relationship with God or my Church and don't know why others have to. It is my personal choice and we all have to make them.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:46:45 PM
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Here's the exact teaching of the Church I posted on another thread. Note that the destruction of extra embryos is NOT the primary objection.
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First, a child is only to be brought forth from a completed marital act.
Children are not objects the be produced in a lab. They are a gift, not a right, not a product.
As you know, each marriage act must be unitive and procreative. In vitro violates the unitive dimension by eliminating the marital embrace.
Secondary concerns are certainly the moral dilemma created by "spare" embryos, however that is not the fundamental issue or reason for opposition. It is intrinsically disordered, so no wonder it also produces a host of morally consequences well beyond the one sinful act.
From the Catechism.
2373 Sacred Scripture and the Church's traditional practice see in large families a sign of God's blessing and the parents' generosity.[162]
2374 Couples who discover that they are sterile suffer greatly. "What will you give me," asks Abraham of God, "for I continue childless?"[163] And Rachel cries to her husband Jacob, "Give me children, or I shall die!"[164]
2375 Research aimed at reducing human sterility is to be encouraged, on condition that it is placed "at the service of the human person, of his inalienable rights, and his true and integral good according to the design and will of God."[165]
2376 Techniques that entail the dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple (donation of sperm or ovum, surrogate uterus), are gravely immoral. These techniques (heterologous artificial insemination and fertilization) infringe the child's right to be born of a father and mother known to him and bound to each other by marriage. They betray the spouses' "right to become a father and a mother only through each other."[166]
2377 Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children."[167] "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses' union .... Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person."[168]
2378 A child is not something owed to one, but is a gift. The "supreme gift of marriage" is a human person. A child may not be considered a piece of property, an idea to which an alleged "right to a child" would lead. In this area, only the child possesses genuine rights: the right "to be the fruit of the specific act of the conjugal love of his parents," and "the right to be respected as a person from the moment of his conception."[169]
2379 The Gospel shows that physical sterility is not an absolute evil. Spouses who still suffer from infertility after exhausting legitimate medical procedures should unite themselves with the Lord's Cross, the source of all spiritual fecundity. They can give expression to their generosity by adopting abandoned children or performing demanding services for others.
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This has nothing to do with transplants, pacemakers, or any other medical intervention to prolong life. All are allowed by the Catholic Church.
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JRussell
PeaFixture
PeaNut 26719 - 1/5/2002
Posts: 3958 Layouts: 54
Loc: Trailhead
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:47:12 PM
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Just because some of us don't agree with 100% of the teachings, doesn't mean we don't agree with the foundation of the Church and doesn't make us "bad" Catholics.
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ITA, I think most people do the best that they can to follow the rules.
We have laws that innocent people break all the time. Most people have gone over the speed limit or double parked. I am not saying that there is any excuse for this whatsoever. BUT, why judge 1 billion Catholics so strongly when regular folks in society who are generally honest people, do the same thing?
Also an interesting article:
clerical sex abuse
I would NEVER condone the abuse of a child but this article puts things into perspective regarding the Catholic church as written by a non-Catholic.
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scrapperwithaview
"Pea"nko, Commie, Liberal
PeaNut 108815 - 9/28/2003
Posts: 9179 Layouts: 0
Loc: FL
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:47:27 PM
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No, no BF, I agree she needed to be fired and knew that. I was responding to those that are posting that if we don't agree with all the teachings that we shouldn't be Catholic, nothing more.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:48:52 PM
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Just because some of us don't agree with 100% of the teachings, doesn't mean we don't agree with the foundation of the Church and doesn't make us "bad" Catholics
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But there is a huge difference between personal choices you make with your faith and signing a contractural agreement to do, or not do, something - - in this case, she agreed to follow the teachings of the Catholic church. That goes beyond just being a Catholic.
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I think what Ruth was saying and what I was agreeing with was the statement that people who didn't accept all the Church's teachings shouldn't be Catholic. IThat statement didn't have anything to do with the teacher's contract, which I have said she shouldn't have signed if she didn't intend to live up to it.
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Nellybelly
Sexy Pea en la Cuidad
PeaNut 23666 - 10/25/2001
Posts: 7010 Layouts: 133
Loc: San Jose girl in the Valley
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:48:56 PM
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annnnnnnd this is why I don't go to church anymore.
BUT
if this was in her contract, then why did she do it??
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Chopped Liver *Ü*
Sam I Mam
PeaNut 43514 - 7/25/2002
Posts: 23682 Layouts: 42
Loc: South Jersey
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:51:10 PM
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Wow, I never thought I'd see a post where Bonnie was ITAing me!!
ETA: Oh, and not because we don't usually agree, but you have such a way with words. I just type them out.
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Burning Feather
Heiress to the UNO fortune
PeaNut 158336 - 7/19/2004
Posts: 8722 Layouts: 2
Loc: Are you kidding? I have two dogs. I'm behind the pooper scooper.
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:51:45 PM
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I think what Ruth was saying and what I was agreeing with was the statement that people who didn't accept all the Church's teachings shouldn't be Catholic.
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I know. But the point of this thread really has to do with the teacher losing her job, not whether or not she should still be a Catholic in her faith. I was kind of just trying to bring it back to the original point and take it away from comments about personal choices made within a private person's religion may be. Two different subjects.
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MNBonnie
The Daily Pea with Jon Stewart
PeaNut 64193 - 1/22/2003
Posts: 7013 Layouts: 16
Loc: Peaing in my Crocs
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:53:18 PM
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Wow, I never thought I'd see a post where Bonnie was ITAing me!!
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Don't let it go to your head.
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Constance
UUPea
PeaNut 2056 - 12/1/1999
Posts: 5666 Layouts: 2
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:53:25 PM
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Can anybody answer my question about birth control? Do Catholic schools require that their teachers not practice it, and if they do, I assume they can be fired, right?
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scrapperwithaview
"Pea"nko, Commie, Liberal
PeaNut 108815 - 9/28/2003
Posts: 9179 Layouts: 0
Loc: FL
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:54:23 PM
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I understand it is two different topics, it was just one that I felt I needed to address, sorry.
I am off to bed.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:55:30 PM
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I was insulted as well Ruth, especially on the other thread where it was directed right at me.
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Burning Feather
Heiress to the UNO fortune
PeaNut 158336 - 7/19/2004
Posts: 8722 Layouts: 2
Loc: Are you kidding? I have two dogs. I'm behind the pooper scooper.
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:55:45 PM
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Can anybody answer my question about birth control? Do Catholic schools require that their teachers not practice it, and if they do, I assume they can be fired, right?
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It probably depends on the school and the contract that they signed. But technically, if they signed a contract similar to what she signed, then I would say yes, practicing birth control in any form would be in violation of that contract and grounds for termination.
However, that's assuming again that you are blabbing at work about your sexual practices. I mean, the school or the Church isn't going to send someone to your home to go through your bureau drawers looking for contraband birth control I'm sure.
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Nellybelly
Sexy Pea en la Cuidad
PeaNut 23666 - 10/25/2001
Posts: 7010 Layouts: 133
Loc: San Jose girl in the Valley
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:56:28 PM
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Please can I ask that people stop saying on who should or shouldn't be a Catholic.
Just because some of us don't agree with 100% of the teachings, doesn't mean we don't agree with the foundation of the Church and doesn't make us "bad" Catholics.
That is between us and the Lord and no one else.
I have seen that said here and the other thread and it is very upsetting.
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I don't agree with a lot of the rules of the church, and yet I still call myself Catholic - I may sound like a hypocrite in saying so, but I am not Christian as I do not believe the bible to be a true word of God maybe an interpretation but not true.
anyway back to the teacher, if its in her contract she should of obliged.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:57:35 PM
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Can anybody answer my question about birth control? Do Catholic schools require that their teachers not practice it, and if they do, I assume they can be fired, right?
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They are probably on a "don't ask, don't tell" basis. If the teacher hadn't said anything about the IVF or why she needed the time off, she'd probably still have her job.
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Burning Feather
Heiress to the UNO fortune
PeaNut 158336 - 7/19/2004
Posts: 8722 Layouts: 2
Loc: Are you kidding? I have two dogs. I'm behind the pooper scooper.
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:57:40 PM
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For what it's worth Ruth (and Jen) it wasn't you I was trying to redirect. The thought went through my head before you even commented.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:58:46 PM
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pssst. Nelly - if you are Catholic, you are a Christian. I think you meant Protestant, as they are the bible literalists.
No problem BF.
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Chopped Liver *Ü*
Sam I Mam
PeaNut 43514 - 7/25/2002
Posts: 23682 Layouts: 42
Loc: South Jersey
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:59:19 PM
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Wow, I never thought I'd see a post where Bonnie was ITAing me!!
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Don't let it go to your head.
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{{SWAT}} Right back down to the real world for me.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/11/2006 9:59:53 PM
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Serious question. If a teacher practices birth control, can he/she be fired from teaching at a Catholic school?
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If they signed a contract that says that they will follow the teachings of the Church... and then they let it be known publically that they are practicing *artificial* birth control... then yes, they can be fired.
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Please can I ask that people stop saying on who should or shouldn't be a Catholic.
Just because some of us don't agree with 100% of the teachings, doesn't mean we don't agree with the foundation of the Church and doesn't make us "bad" Catholics.
That is between us and the Lord and no one else.
I have seen that said here and the other thread and it is very upsetting.
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I absolutely agree. *lightening strikes*
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JRussell
PeaFixture
PeaNut 26719 - 1/5/2002
Posts: 3958 Layouts: 54
Loc: Trailhead
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:00:39 PM
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Please can I ask that people stop saying on who should or shouldn't be a Catholic.
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I couldn't agree with this more. If I am a bad Catholic, let God be my judge, not anyone else, not a message board, not my neighbour, just God.
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Constance
UUPea
PeaNut 2056 - 12/1/1999
Posts: 5666 Layouts: 2
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:03:01 PM
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Thanks, BF and Jen. I guess it's the "don't ask/don't tell" thing that bothers me. If something is so wrong that the church school doesn't want its teachers doing it, shouldn't it be a problem whether the teachers "tell" or not? I'm also wondering when breaking a church rule constitutes grounds for dismissal and when it doesn't, since we all know everybody isn't perfect. I've never seen Catholic school contract, so I have no idea how that is spelled out in their contracts.
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DastardlyBoo
pea long and prosper
PeaNut 82656 - 4/22/2003
Posts: 6363 Layouts: 94
Loc: in the middle
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:03:13 PM
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Hmmmm, I wonder how small the Catholic Church would become in regular suburban parishes if they excommunicated every couple who use birth control?
The Catholic Church as a functioning entity ignores this and other (relatively small) infringements of it's laws in order to stay alive.
I am a "bad Catholic". I admit to using contraception. I notice a lot of other Catholics on the board and not all of them have 8 children and I am sure of all of the who don't have fertility issues. So... I take the lumps for being honest. *I* get told I have no right to receive the EUCHARIST?
Hmmmmmm
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MNBonnie
The Daily Pea with Jon Stewart
PeaNut 64193 - 1/22/2003
Posts: 7013 Layouts: 16
Loc: Peaing in my Crocs
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:03:33 PM
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but you have such a way with words. I just type them out.
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Awww, Sam! (Shoving heartcat off the seat next to me as my favorite pea )
LOL! JK
Heck, I'd need a whole balcony for people who are my favorite peas. But Sam, you can sit right next to me!
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Chopped Liver *Ü*
Sam I Mam
PeaNut 43514 - 7/25/2002
Posts: 23682 Layouts: 42
Loc: South Jersey
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:06:20 PM
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Heck, I'd need a whole balcony for people who are my favorite peas. But Sam, you can sit right next to me!
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{{Bowing}}I'm not worthy {{/Bowing}}
SWEET!!!
Right back atcha, btw
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Constance
UUPea
PeaNut 2056 - 12/1/1999
Posts: 5666 Layouts: 2
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:06:36 PM
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Bonnie and Sam - could you guys get a room?
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Chopped Liver *Ü*
Sam I Mam
PeaNut 43514 - 7/25/2002
Posts: 23682 Layouts: 42
Loc: South Jersey
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:08:48 PM
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Wanna join us Constance??
Hmm, that seems somehow wrong on this thread.
Oh and Bonnie, I don't take up much room. I'll gladly share a seat with Cathy. She's one of my favorite peas too.
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Constance
UUPea
PeaNut 2056 - 12/1/1999
Posts: 5666 Layouts: 2
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:09:49 PM
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A three-way? Ooooooh...
I think that would get us kicked out of lots of places for sure!
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Chopped Liver *Ü*
Sam I Mam
PeaNut 43514 - 7/25/2002
Posts: 23682 Layouts: 42
Loc: South Jersey
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:10:41 PM
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Ehh, won't be the first time.
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t_4_2
BucketHead
PeaNut 236729 - 12/15/2005
Posts: 653 Layouts: 15
Loc: New York
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:10:44 PM
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ITA agree with Ruth and others. I admit I'm a fallen to the wayside Catholic, but maybe in the tiniest way, being a Catholic is also like part of a heritage, and even though you may have put it off to the side, so to speak, you always know its there if you want to find your way back. Or maybe that's the way it is with most religions.
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tupperwarepam
PeaFixture
PeaNut 170575 - 10/1/2004
Posts: 3051 Layouts: 0
Loc: niagara region ontario
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:10:55 PM
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Priests take vows. They are not legally binding contracts. Therefore, the Church is free to deal with violations of those vows as they see fit.
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Okay. So, she broke a signed contract. She was fired.
But, does the Catholic Church not believe that you have sexual intercourse to procreate?
Then, what is their stand on homosexuality?
There was a post above where they asked about Priests and molesting young boys.
Is homosexuality a sin? Is it against the Church rules? Or, is homosexuality a sin against God?
TIA Pam
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Constance
UUPea
PeaNut 2056 - 12/1/1999
Posts: 5666 Layouts: 2
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:12:30 PM
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Ehh, won't be the first time.
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Oh yeah - I forgot you are the master! I bow to your superior skills.
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DastardlyBoo
pea long and prosper
PeaNut 82656 - 4/22/2003
Posts: 6363 Layouts: 94
Loc: in the middle
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:14:04 PM
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1) Pedophilia has NOTHING to do with homosexuality
2) Being homosexual is not a sin. Acting on it is.
It is my understanding that the Church sees homosexual people as being called to a life of celibacy.
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Chopped Liver *Ü*
Sam I Mam
PeaNut 43514 - 7/25/2002
Posts: 23682 Layouts: 42
Loc: South Jersey
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:14:32 PM
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Chopped Liver *Ü*
Sam I Mam
PeaNut 43514 - 7/25/2002
Posts: 23682 Layouts: 42
Loc: South Jersey
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:16:12 PM
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Back on topic here...
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It is my understanding that the Church sees homosexual people as being called to a life of celibacy.
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Really??? I never heard that. Interesting.
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DastardlyBoo
pea long and prosper
PeaNut 82656 - 4/22/2003
Posts: 6363 Layouts: 94
Loc: in the middle
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:19:19 PM
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The way it was explained to me was this. God doesn't make mistakes. If someone is born gay, that is the way that God wants them to be. So there is nothing wrong with being gay. The sin would be in the sexual act which is not about procreating.
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tupperwarepam
PeaFixture
PeaNut 170575 - 10/1/2004
Posts: 3051 Layouts: 0
Loc: niagara region ontario
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:20:46 PM
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Sorry, I should have left a space between homosexuality and pedophilia.
So, let me get this straight.
Catholic men who are sexually attracted to men are called to a life of celibacy? In the eyes of the Church...
What about priests who molest children? What happens to them in the Church?
TIA Pam
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gryroshaggy
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 61262 - 1/8/2003
Posts: 2992 Layouts: 52
Loc: Way down south in the land of Dixie
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:25:41 PM
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Allrighty girls-break it up!
Catholics *DO* practice birth control. Its called "planning",LOL. Periodic abstinence, charting, temp taking, the whole "taking Charge of Your Fertility" thing a form of birth control. Its just artificial birth control the Church objects to.
And, all for essentially the same reason. Sex is essentially procreative, open to life. A big, big part of any marriage. A big, important part-so important that the Church feels it shouldn't be lessened or muddied up with artificial birth control, partners outside the sacrament of marraige, or yes-IVF.
I admit to having trust issues with the Big Guy Upstairs. As in, if I really trusted Him, wouldn't I ditch the IUD? I mean, after all, surely God knows I DO NOT need anymore kids. In my heart I know this. In my heart, I know I lack faith.
But in my heart also, I know the Catholic Church is the one I beleive in and follow. Should I stop being Catholic, for using artificial birth control? I don't think so-I think that would be a sin,too, to turn my back on God.
I imagine the woman in question had the same trust issues I do-trusting God with something like a much-wanted child is tough, when you know a medical procedure can make it possible. I'm certainly not judging her. I'm just not blaming the Church, either.
And what the hoo-ha do pedophile priests have to do with any of this? If tommorrow the entire clergy of the Catholic Church started setting fires, stealing and commiting adultery, it wouldn't make the teachings of the Church any different. It would make them all sinners, but it wouldn't make the Church less true. Just like those disgusting priests and whoever covered it up don't change the truth in the Chuch I find. Apples and oranges, to me.
Cami
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Toddie
I need therapea!
PeaNut 65272 - 1/28/2003
Posts: 7426 Layouts: 0
Loc: In my own little world
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:27:39 PM
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Situations like this (and many others!) is why I've seriously questioned my Catholic faith over the past couple of years.
To the person who said what does priests molesting children have to do with this issue, to me, it has a lot to do with it. They can fire a good teacher because she conceived twins through ivf, yet shuffle around child molestors to other parishes, leaving them free to molest even more kids? I don't know, but that leaves a bad feeling with me.
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DastardlyBoo
pea long and prosper
PeaNut 82656 - 4/22/2003
Posts: 6363 Layouts: 94
Loc: in the middle
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:27:51 PM
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You know that's been addressed upteen times, huh?
Obviously it's a sin....and a crime.
In my opinion the decisions made by individuals in the Catholic Church are also criminal. I don't know if legally it's possible to prosecute them.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:29:37 PM
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I guess it's the "don't ask/don't tell" thing that bothers me. If something is so wrong that the church school doesn't want its teachers doing it, shouldn't it be a problem whether the teachers "tell" or not? I'm also wondering when breaking a church rule constitutes grounds for dismissal and when it doesn't, since we all know everybody isn't perfect.
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You are absolutely correct that we are all sinners.
However, in a case like this (and others where teachers at Catholic schools have been fired for breaking their contractual obligation to abide by Chruch teachings) the problem isn't just the commision of the sin. That is between the teacher and God. The problem is the public nature of their violation of Catholic teaching.
In *my* perfect Catholic worl (that never existed, and never will) there would not be any teachers in Catholic schools who are not strictly obedient to the teachings of the magesterium. However, since that is a bit much to ask... the Church just aims for no public disagreement with the teachings of the Church.
If a teacher announced that they are using artificial contraception... fired. However, if they make no such announcement then nobody has any reason to know... and no scandal.
BTW - I mean scandal in a particularly Catholic sense. In terms of someone creating a scandal publicises sin and 'normalizes' it. The Catholic Church has every right to not have people who publically sin according to their teachings... not be teachers!
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I am a "bad Catholic". I admit to using contraception. I notice a lot of other Catholics on the board and not all of them have 8 children and I am sure of all of the who don't have fertility issues. So... I take the lumps for being honest. *I* get told I have no right to receive the EUCHARIST?
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Boo - I am very sorry if someone told you that.
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Catholic men who are sexually attracted to men are called to a life of celibacy? In the eyes of the Church...
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Sort of. Actually, all Catholics are called to a life of chastity (no sex) outside of marriage. As homosexual marriage is not permitted in the church homosexuals are then called to a life of celibacy (unmarried life). So basically gay = no marriage = no sex.
At the same time hetero and unmarried also = no sex
On the issue of abusive priests - I am not going to discuss it on this board. Far to many people have used it as nothing more than a battering ram with which they revel in attacking the Church and it's followers.
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DastardlyBoo
pea long and prosper
PeaNut 82656 - 4/22/2003
Posts: 6363 Layouts: 94
Loc: in the middle
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:35:04 PM
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If you are not in communion with it's teachings, including contraception, then you aren't to receive the Eucharist.
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tupperwarepam
PeaFixture
PeaNut 170575 - 10/1/2004
Posts: 3051 Layouts: 0
Loc: niagara region ontario
Posted: 5/11/2006 10:42:46 PM
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On the issue of abusive priests - I am not going to discuss it on this board. Far to many people have used it as nothing more than a battering ram with which they revel in attacking the Church and it's followers.
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Mapchic....You are awesome!!!
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Skybar
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 188727 - 1/31/2005
Posts: 5399 Layouts: 0
Loc: AZ desert
Posted: 5/12/2006 1:45:53 AM
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, I still think churches should be allowed to hire or fire people based on their beliefs. I know that is crazy talk from a liberal like me, but that's the way I feel.
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oh no!!! we're agreeing again! we gotta stop this! lol!
I do agree on this. You know, I get sooo tired of this cr*p.
If you don't agree... go elsewhere...move on to a different job, group, church etc....
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PeaTAMom
PeaFixture
PeaNut 159334 - 7/26/2004
Posts: 3120 Layouts: 0
Loc: Under the sticker sneeze, just past the decorative scissors
Posted: 5/12/2006 2:14:59 AM
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I saw her interviewed yesterday and she said she wasn't aware of the churches stand on IVF when she told her boss about her treatments. Umm, that's her responsibility to learn that being that she works for them.
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I guess that's where I believe forgiveness should come in.
Why is there no forgiveness if you've "signed a contract"?
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 2:22:51 AM
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I guess that's where I believe forgiveness should come in.
Why is there no forgiveness if you've "signed a contract"?
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She is a visit to the confessional away from recieving forgiveness for her sins (actually for all we know she has already done that). But forgiveness doesn't mean that you are not still responsible for the consequences of your actions.
Actions have consequences... particularly when they are laid out in a contract.
I just have to comment that this story is a symptom of a real failure on the part of many priests and Bishops. I don't know about the other Catholics out there... but I haven't heard much relaying of the church's teachings on reproduction from the pulpit in homilies.
The fact that she says she doesn't know the church's teachings on this one... if I were her pastor I would be making sure I did a homily on this topic right quick to make sure my parishoners did know the teachings of the church on this very important issue.
PeaPoster
PeaTAMom
PeaFixture
PeaNut 159334 - 7/26/2004
Posts: 3120 Layouts: 0
Loc: Under the sticker sneeze, just past the decorative scissors
Posted: 5/12/2006 2:30:19 AM
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From the Catechism.
2373 Sacred Scripture and the Church's traditional practice see in large families a sign of God's blessing and the parents' generosity.[162]
2374 Couples who discover that they are sterile suffer greatly. "What will you give me," asks Abraham of God, "for I continue childless?"[163] And Rachel cries to her husband Jacob, "Give me children, or I shall die!"[164]
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But isn't the way this all played out that he took another wife in order to have children? Doesn't that break the marital bond with Rachel? God seemed OK with that outcome and eventually even gave Rachel children. Why is that part included in the Catechism? Seems pretty un-Catholic to me.
Honestly, I really don't understand this whole situation. If, as has been described here, the woman was in a monogamous marriage, trying to have a child (that intercourse thing was going on) and sought a little help from science (perhaps the intercourse wasn't happening at the same time, but I imagine that the husband was probably there, at least draping an arm around his wife's shoulder affectionately), and no created embryos were destroyed, then ...
the woman lets it slip that she's been having fertility treatments in order to complete their loving family ...
Isn't there any wiggle room? Isn't Christianity founded upon forgiveness? If you and I and everyone else are sinners, and we are allowed to be sinners as long as we try to do better and ask for forgiveness when we mess up,
how is it that the fact she had "a contract" negating her from the possibility of being forgiven? Why is there no penance and forgiveness for her?
::Edited to fix error::
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Skybar
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 188727 - 1/31/2005
Posts: 5399 Layouts: 0
Loc: AZ desert
Posted: 5/12/2006 2:35:33 AM
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Hmmmm, I wonder how small the Catholic Church would become in regular suburban parishes if they excommunicated every couple who use birth control?
The Catholic Church as a functioning entity ignores this and other (relatively small) infringements of it's laws in order to stay alive.
I am a "bad Catholic". I admit to using contraception. I notice a lot of other Catholics on the board and not all of them have 8 children and I am sure of all of the who don't have fertility issues. So... I take the lumps for being honest. *I* get told I have no right to receive the EUCHARIST?
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boo - you and bonnie trying to ruin my night on the board here? lol!!!
I agree on these things! When I was Catholic - I was a bad one I guess... now I've read / heard they call it a 'cafeteria' Catholic! lol!
maybe it's the pain in my hands tonight.... it's throwing me off! (j/k)
can someone JEN/mapchic /someone tell me if all that stuff posted by jen M? on ivf - must be considered church doctrine? I don't think it's biblical...so, I'm thinking all that detail must have come out of some Vatican meeting / group who defined it all?
is this something the Pope rules on and is then considered doctrine because he is infallible in this?
btw, this case must be different from the one I heard about (fairly recent) because that woman was unmarried. I can really see why that would be a problem for a teacher at a Catholic school.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 2:45:36 AM
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PeaTAMom - forgiveness does NOT mean that one is not responsible for your actions.
She of her own free will violated the teachings of the Catholic Church. Maybe she agrees with those teachings, maybe she disagrees. Maybe you agree, maybe you disagree.
That doesn't matter.
What matters is that those are the teachings, and she violated them. In doing so she violated the terms of her emplyment contract... and has to face the consequences.
I can't see what you don't understand here.
Actions have consequences.
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pyccku
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 5176 - 7/5/2000
Posts: 2437 Layouts: 42
Posted: 5/12/2006 7:00:24 AM
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If you have a contract, you need to abide by it. She took a job where the employer was a church, and the employer expected certain things to be done. She didn't follow the terms of employment, so she was fired. And she is quite obviously public about it - if she had said nothing about IVF to her colleagues, they likely would never have known. Part of the job of a Catholic school teacher is to be an example of the Catholic belief system. If you can't do that, why would they want to hire you?
She can always find a job at a public school. Most likely the pay will be better, and there won't be any restrictions on her reproductive choices, so long as she isn't involving students. Heck, sometimes you can even get away with that if you're good looking enough!
And what's with the all or nothing argument? What's wrong with disagreeing with the church on something? I can't think of a single person or entity that I agree with 100% of the time. Does that mean I shouldn't ever associate with them?
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Mrs.Scrappy
PeaNut
PeaNut 221434 - 9/2/2005
Posts: 83 Layouts: 7
Loc: Midwest
Posted: 5/12/2006 7:39:35 AM
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I'm not surprised. I don't agree with it, but it is their right if she broke the contract. My husband works for a Catholic based hospital (I think I'm saying that right) and they just discontinued their insurance coverage for IVF because the Catholic church doesn't believe in IVF.
I hope the teacher has a happy & healthy pregnancy though!
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m2b
PeaAddict
PeaNut 226741 - 10/11/2005
Posts: 1209 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:01:14 AM
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I don't agree but if that was in her contract I guess they can do it.
That being said I would pick having a child over my job any day and I am a "good" catholic.
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Peas OnEarth
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 179732 - 12/4/2004
Posts: 5591 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:06:40 AM
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First, a child is only to be brought forth from a completed marital act.
Children are not objects the be produced in a lab. They are a gift, not a right, not a product.
As you know, each marriage act must be unitive and procreative. In vitro violates the unitive dimension by eliminating the marital embrace.
Secondary concerns are certainly the moral dilemma created by "spare" embryos, however that is not the fundamental issue or reason for opposition. It is intrinsically disordered, so no wonder it also produces a host of morally consequences well beyond the one sinful act.
From the Catechism.
2373 Sacred Scripture and the Church's traditional practice see in large families a sign of God's blessing and the parents' generosity.[162]
2374 Couples who discover that they are sterile suffer greatly. "What will you give me," asks Abraham of God, "for I continue childless?"[163] And Rachel cries to her husband Jacob, "Give me children, or I shall die!"[164]
2375 Research aimed at reducing human sterility is to be encouraged, on condition that it is placed "at the service of the human person, of his inalienable rights, and his true and integral good according to the design and will of God."[165]
2376 Techniques that entail the dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple (donation of sperm or ovum, surrogate uterus), are gravely immoral. These techniques (heterologous artificial insemination and fertilization) infringe the child's right to be born of a father and mother known to him and bound to each other by marriage. They betray the spouses' "right to become a father and a mother only through each other."[166]
2377 Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children."[167] "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses' union .... Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person."[168]
2378 A child is not something owed to one, but is a gift. The "supreme gift of marriage" is a human person. A child may not be considered a piece of property, an idea to which an alleged "right to a child" would lead. In this area, only the child possesses genuine rights: the right "to be the fruit of the specific act of the conjugal love of his parents," and "the right to be respected as a person from the moment of his conception."[169]
2379 The Gospel shows that physical sterility is not an absolute evil. Spouses who still suffer from infertility after exhausting legitimate medical procedures should unite themselves with the Lord's Cross, the source of all spiritual fecundity. They can give expression to their generosity by adopting abandoned children or performing demanding services for others.
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Wow! THis is exactly why I don't participate in organized religion. I guess if you want to molest children that is just fine in God's eyes, but forget it if a husband and wife very much in love need a little help in having a child. I am not a Catholic and I am not saying the church is wrong. I just wonder who subscribes to all of this because every Catholic I know has done things that their church deams immoral and evil.
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:07:17 AM
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If you are not in communion with it's teachings, including contraception, then you aren't to receive the Eucharist.
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I'm the person who expressed this to Boo. But in fairness to me, here is the entire thought that I tried, but failed miserably to express:
"With all due respect, truly, what happened to you doesn't change what the church teaches on artificial contraception. But as I said, that's between you and God. He knows your heart and I am certain you are a wonderful person. But the church is very clear on this. If you are not in communion with it's teachings, including contraception, then you aren't to receive the Eucharist. Let me repeat again, this isn't my judgement. This is what our church teaches. This applies to everything the church teaches...abortion, death penalty, etc. If a Catholic person doesnt' follow those teachings, then they are "out of communion" with the church. "
Looking back I should have substituted the word "one" for the word "you" so that wouldn't have implied "you" personally. I also should have added that by participating the the Sacrament of Penance, one can bring themselves back into communion with the church...as long as the person is truly sorry for whatever the sin is and promises to follow the Act of Contrition:
O my God, I am heartily sorry for
having offended you, and I detest
all my sins, because of Your just
punishments, but most of all because
they offend You, my God, who are
all-good and deserving of all my love.
I firmly resolve, with the help of
Your grace, to sin no more and to
avoid the near occasion of sin.
Also from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, pg 362 paragraph 1443:
During his public life Jesus not only forgave sins, but also made plain the effect of this forgiveness: he reintegrated forgiven sinners into the community of the People of God from which sin had alienated or even excluded them. A remarkable sign of this is the fact that Jesus receives sinners at his table, a gesture that expresses in an astonshing way both God's forgiveness and the return of the bosom of the People of God."
Maybe this should be the subject of another thread but, here's are the Catholic Church's words on Artificial Contraception according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church...
pg 570 paragraph 2370:
Periodic continence, that is, methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the educatiojn of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible, is intrinsically evil;
Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth to conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality....The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle...involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality. "
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:10:40 AM
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I guess if you want to molest children that is just fine in God's eyes, but forget it if a husband and wife very much in love need a little help in having a child.
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Wow, that's taking things pretty far there! Sexual relations are a gift of marriage, to be shared with one's spouse, not with anyone outside the marriage, including children. God does not condone molesting children.
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JRussell
PeaFixture
PeaNut 26719 - 1/5/2002
Posts: 3958 Layouts: 54
Loc: Trailhead
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:13:06 AM
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THis is exactly why I don't participate in organized religion. I guess if you want to molest children that is just fine in God's eyes, but forget it if a husband and wife very much in love need a little help in having a child.
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Where the heck did anyone say that molestation is fine in God's eyes? Please provide a quote or souce because that is very, very wrong!! Total ignorance on your part.
Please don't pass judgement on 1 billion Catholics because there are a few who did very bad things.
NO decent minded individual thinks that molestation is good in God's eyes. Good grief.
Plus, take a look at other denominations and see what their history is on child molestation. It is NOT a Catholic issue but we are the biggest Christian denomination and take the brunt of the hits.
I will point you in the right direction to check: The Anglican Church of Canada was near bankrupcy a few years ago due to pay outs for child molestation. Or, look up the United Church of Canada.
I use Canada since I am familiar with my own country.
Child Molestation is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG in the eyes of Catholics.
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MissFrenchJessica
PeaAddict
PeaNut 210385 - 6/16/2005
Posts: 1886 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:14:26 AM
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It clearly states in her contract that she would live by the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Regardless of whether or not you agree with those teachings... she signed that contract of her own free will and is thusly bound by it's regulations.
For those of you who wonder what the Catholic teachings on this are... there is a nice 'rule of thumb' from the USCCB
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Any procedure which assists marital intercourse in reaching its procreative potential is moral
Procedures which add a "third party" into the act of conception, or which substitute a laboratory procedure for intercourse, are not acceptable.
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You may agree or disagree with it... but if you disagree, then don't sign a contract that says you will abide by it.
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Yup, what mapchic said. It's unfortunate, but she did sign the contract freely. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I do get the legality of it. I also agree with the problems in relocating pedophile priests. I guess vows and a contract are different...although I'd rather have a teacher who had Invitro done teaching my child than a pedophile priest in my parish any day.
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*rosebud*
PeaNut
PeaNut 228820 - 10/24/2005
Posts: 385 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:25:27 AM
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Everyone can argue that she signed the countract to live by Catholic teachings, but the crappy thing about these types of contracts (in my opinion) is that they are often used as escape hatches by the employers and not enforced across the boards.
ALL of the "teachings" of the Catholic Church? Really? All? And what constitutes "teaching" anyway? Are teachers being routinely fired for using birth control, having premarital sex, missing mass on Holy Days of obligation, receiving Eucharist with mortal sin on your soul without first receiving reconciliation...where does it end?
Yes, she signed the contract. But, yes, I think this particular enforcement is crappy.
BTW, when my sister taught in a Catholic School, her contract was signed that stated she could be dismissed for "moral turpitude".
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 8:43:50 AM
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As a parent of 5 children who have attended Catholic schools, I would like for their teachers to uphold the teachings of the Church and lead by example, especially since it is the very Church that is supporting the school. Isn't this a GOOD thing for the students to see? Wouldn't you want your child/children to be taught in a Catholic school by someone who LIVES the teachings? Maybe I'm just naive...
I think it's a little ironic that folks are so quick to judge priests who have sinned but yet are so quick to "not want to be judged by others for their sins..." The priests who violated their vows commited horrible sins...as a victim of incest, I know the pain the victims have suffered at the hands of those priests. However, am I to sit in judgement of those priests? I thought that was God's job. I thought the Church teaches for us to pray for those sinners...
Pedophiles exist everywhere, not just in the Catholic Church...in public schools, in protestant churches...EVERYWHERE.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 9:09:37 AM
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I just wonder who subscribes to all of this because every Catholic I know has done things that their church deams immoral and evil.
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While I have commited sins in the past (haven't we all) I have gone to confession, atoned for my sins and now I really work hard to follow *all* of the teachings of the church.
Do I still sin? Yes. Because I am human.
However, now you can say that you 'know' someone who does follow all of the teachings of the Catholic Church.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5922 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 9:12:18 AM
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I agree. I would not work somewhere where your reproductive rights are compromised. It's none of their business how her child was conceived.
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My thoughts exactly.
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batya
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 59094 - 12/20/2002
Posts: 2623 Layouts: 0
Loc: up on my high horse
Posted: 5/12/2006 9:53:32 AM
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Yikes! Just b/c the church covered up the pedophilia scandal doesn't mean G-d approves of molestation.
It is the human interpretation and fault that let this happen. Not only do I think /G-d is judging and condemning the pedophile priests, but also those in the church who allowed them to continue their evil.
And I can see why the dichotomy was raised regarding the pedophiles being given carte blanche while the mom was not. It was to express dismay at what the church seemingly condones.
And yes she signed a contract. So it's being enforced. But where does the religious aspect stop and the legal aspect begin? (That was rhetorical, BTW.)
Just a funny contradiction: if there was no knowledge of the sin, in Catholicism, as explained above, then there was no sin committed. HOWEVER, if there was no knowledge of the law, even if it's broken, you are still liable for your crime. So even if she had no knowledge of her sin, she is held liable for breaking the contract!
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:01:41 AM
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ALL of the "teachings" of the Catholic Church? Really? All? And what constitutes "teaching" anyway? Are teachers being routinely fired for using birth control, having premarital sex, missing mass on Holy Days of obligation, receiving Eucharist with mortal sin on your soul without first receiving reconciliation...where does it end?
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Yes, really all. What constitutes a teaching of the Church is conveniently listed in the Catechism.
Are teachers being fired for violating different rules? Yes. There was the case of the male teacher in MA fired because he got his girlfriend pregnant (sex outside of marriage), birth control is a tricky one... nobody would know unless you told them. However, if you do publicise that then yes, you are liable to get fired.
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I agree. I would not work somewhere where your reproductive rights are compromised. It's none of their business how her child was conceived.
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This is an interesting quote.
Are you saying that your personal 'reproductive rights' trump other peoples religious rights?
I actually think that his has a great deal in common with the stories of pharmacists who are being fired for not dispensing the morning after pill.
In both cases the private employer has the right to expect their employees will follow certain norms of conduct... and when the employees fails to do that... they are liable to get fired.
I wonder how many people who are outraged that this teacher is getting fired also believed that pharmacists who refuse to dispense BC and the Morning After pill should be fired?
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Anewday
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 246606 - 1/31/2006
Posts: 2473 Layouts: 13
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:14:25 AM
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I wonder how many people who are outraged that this teacher is getting fired also believed that pharmacists who refuse to dispense BC and the Morning After pill should be fired?
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I believe the employer in both instances has the right to fire the employee.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:21:21 AM
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Let me be clear - I totally believe that private employers have the right to fire employees for not living up to the terms of their contracts... Both if they are teachers as in this case, or if they are pharmicists in the other.
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MNBonnie
The Daily Pea with Jon Stewart
PeaNut 64193 - 1/22/2003
Posts: 7013 Layouts: 16
Loc: Peaing in my Crocs
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:21:51 AM
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I feel the same as Lauren. I think the Catholic school should be allowed to fire the teacher and the pharmacy has the right to fire the pharmacist if they refuse to fill perscriptions. But I also feel a Catholic hospital has every right in the world to not perform abortions, stock morning after pills or any kind of birth control pill.
Unless abuse or violence is being done within a church, the government should stay the hell out of churches' business, and the churches should do the same of the government, IMO.
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KahluaKoala
PeaAddict
PeaNut 187179 - 1/23/2005
Posts: 1582 Layouts: 0
Loc: Miami Florida
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:25:11 AM
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I Vote for her baby to enter Seminary School and become the Pope ......
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*rosebud*
PeaNut
PeaNut 228820 - 10/24/2005
Posts: 385 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:25:33 AM
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re teachers being fired for violating different rules? Yes. There was the case of the male teacher in MA fired because he got his girlfriend pregnant (sex outside of marriage), birth control is a tricky one... nobody would know unless you told them. However, if you do publicise that then yes, you are liable to get fired.
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I agree that you are liable to get fired. However, look at the situation you described above. If this guy had only broken two rules rather than one (premarital sex and birth control or premarital sex and abortion), he could have kept his job.
That's why I think the enforcement gets so tricky and can border on the absurd. Break every last one quietly and you are golden. Break one publicly - even one that many Catholics routinely break and feel no moral dilemma in breaking; ones that some priests even tell parishioners to follow their own consciouses about - and you lose your job. And then you are jobless and the child suffers - the blameless child.
Yes, they absolutely have the right - but I really do think there should be some pragmatism and compassion in the application of the rules.
Full disclaimer: I was raised Catholic and educated in Catholic Schools for 17 years (kindergarten through college). I was never a particularly "good Catholic" and completely left the religion about 5 years ago. But I can't deny that the upbringing and teachings still profoundly effect me.
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9grtkds
PeaNut
PeaNut 249528 - 2/18/2006
Posts: 367 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:31:54 AM
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I have always been told that a portion of the Catholic Church's rules on IVF are.....the number of embryos created. I have a number of friends who are now struggling with what to do with their extra embryos. They are adamently opposed to destroying them, they do not feel that they want to enlarge their families and embryo adoption seems too hard.
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Peas OnEarth
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 179732 - 12/4/2004
Posts: 5591 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:33:04 AM
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Wow, that's taking things pretty far there! Sexual relations are a gift of marriage, to be shared with one's spouse, not with anyone outside the marriage, including children. God does not condone molesting children.
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I was speaking the scandal with priests. I am sorry but the part I originally quoted where it said that fertility treatments are a mortal sin really pissed me off. Again, I am not Catholic and they can feel anyway they want. It is just ironic to me what they consider a mortal sin. With all the people creating life and throwing it away, not treating their children well, divorce etc.. I just find it odd that a husband and wife who love eachother trying to have a child is a mortal sin. I am not bashing every single Catholic. Some of my family are Catholics. I do think whoever wrote that docterine on infertility is mean and crazy.
I would respect the Catholic church more if the Priests who were accoused of molestation had been prosecuted as opposed to moved to other parishes. I also have a problem with any church or church leader who knows that someone is being accused of molestation and legal action is not taken. All organized religion is pretty hypocritical in my view.
As for the teacher, the school she works at has a right to fire her.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:55:54 AM
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the part I originally quoted where it said that fertility treatments are a mortal sin really pissed me off. Again, I am not Catholic and they can feel anyway they want. It is just ironic to me what they consider a mortal sin. With all the people creating life and throwing it away, not treating their children well, divorce etc..
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Can I ask a question here... Why does it piss you off?
If you are not Catholic why would it piss you off what the teachings of the Catholic Church are?
I mean they don't apply to you, you have no obligation to follow them, there is no reason they should anger you in any way because they don't imparct your life in any way.
Anyway, all those other societal problems you listed are also considered sins in the eyes of the church. So you can't blame them for not speaking out against them and instead speaking out against IVF.
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I am not bashing every single Catholic.
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No, just those who follow the teachings of the Church.
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Peas de Resistance
BucketHead
PeaNut 251396 - 3/2/2006
Posts: 625 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:57:25 AM
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I know of a priest outside of Boston who refused to perform a baptism on twin who were conceived using IVF.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:05:01 AM
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My children attend school in the system where this teacher was fired. The contract she signed clearly stated that everyone must uphold the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Contracts are given out annually and the teachers have a month to go through it before signing and turning it back into the system. Although I do not agree with the church's stand on IVF, the system does have the right to fire her for not upholding her contract. Ironically, the president of the system has admitted that it is quite likely that there are teachers in the system who use birth control or have had a vascetomy, and since the system doesn't know about it, there is nothing they can do about it. However, I would guess if it came to light those teachers would be fired as well.
Lisa
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:23:01 AM
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I thought that sterilization was OK for Catholics? Somebody could be fired for having a vasectomy too?
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:24:24 AM
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I thought that sterilization was OK for Catholics?
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Nope, not OK.
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:25:02 AM
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Thanks Mapchic.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:26:54 AM
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I may be wrong, but I thought that the only acceptable form of birth control is the rhythm method. I do know that Catholic hospitals will not do a tubal ligation.
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:26:55 AM
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Ok, so I'm confused. If no birth control is OK, why is natural family planning OK? Isn't it still standing in God's way of creating life? What is the difference between taking a pill and abstaining while ovulation? It's still self-will controlling fertility.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:27:25 AM
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I may be wrong, but I thought that the only acceptable form of birth control is the rhythm method. I do know that Catholic hospitals will not do a tubal ligation.
Lisa
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mtomseth
BucketHead
PeaNut 191190 - 2/14/2005
Posts: 953 Layouts: 0
Loc: Pacific Northwest
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:30:33 AM
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I Vote for her baby to enter Seminary School and become the Pope ......
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That will never happen... both of her babies are girls.
I believe the Catholic school has the right to enforce the employment contract which states employees will abide by church rules. This teacher needs to find a teaching position at a school that isn't opposed to IVF.
Because I believe in the right to make my own reproductive choices I would never go to work for an organization that disagrees with my choices.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:34:35 AM
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Tina, I do not have any answers for you because it confuses me as well.
Lisa
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:34:39 AM
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Ok, so I'm confused. If no birth control is OK, why is natural family planning OK? Isn't it still standing in God's way of creating life? What is the difference between taking a pill and abstaining while ovulation? It's still self-will controlling fertility.
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Here is the short answer... because when you are utilizing NFP every time you engage in sex you are open to the possibility of life. Without barriers of any kind between you and your spouse and God's will.
There is a lot more to it, and honestly someone who is married and practicing NFP can answer better than I. Because honestly, I haven't paid much attention to those teachings because as of now... they don't apply to me!
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Peas OnEarth
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 179732 - 12/4/2004
Posts: 5591 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:38:33 AM
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Can I ask a question here... Why does it piss you off?
If you are not Catholic why would it piss you off what the teachings of the Catholic Church are?
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It pisses me off because right now I am a week from finding out if I am pregnant and I am hormonal and stressed etc.. So are Catholics going to look at my family and say we are a sin or not conceived of love etc.. It upsets me that any other person would feel this way about helping loving couples conceive life.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:41:46 AM
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Why in the world would you care what Catholics think when you aren't even one of them? It's not like we are going to send an angry mob with torches and pitchforks to your door.
I certainly don't sit around all worried everytime I eat a ham sandwich I'm going to be judged by Jewish people or Muslims.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:45:10 AM
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So are Catholics going to look at my family and say we are a sin or not conceived of love etc.. It upsets me that any other person would feel this way about helping loving couples conceive life.
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Why should you care what other people think?
Anyway, I am not judging you or anyone else who chooses to have IVF. That's not my responsiblity.
I am just saying to for *me* it would be a sin (because I am working hard to faithfully follow the teachings of the Catholic Church).
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:46:32 AM
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As I said in an earlier post, I do not agree with the church's teachings on IVF. It should not matter whether assistance is needed or not to conceive a child, they are all God's children and should be loved. We should be more concerned about the parents who abuse their children, not on how a woman became pregnant.
Lisa
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:48:12 AM
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I think it's a little ironic that folks are so quick to judge priests who have sinned but yet are so quick to "not want to be judged by others for their sins..."
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Not sure I understand what you mean by this, but yes, call me judgmental. I cannot think of a more horrible sin/crime than to violate a child especially when you have taken a vow to uphold the teachings of the church and are in a position where you are a trusted member of the community.
I think the reason the pedophile Priest issue is being discussed is because the Church protected these Priests, versus protecting the child. So when you come down on IVF, it rings a little hollow.
But I'm not a Catholic. I don't dislike Catholism, just don't care for anyone that protects sexual predators. I understand pedophilia is not isolated to one religion. I just wish that the congregations would rise up against these horrible creatures versus making excuses and protecting them.
That being said, I do agree that you sign a contract, you abide by it.
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:48:55 AM
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This is cut and pasted from http://www.bygpub.com/natural/index.htm:
The idea behind natural family planning is very simple. A woman is fertile for only about 100 to 120 hours during a month. Let's call this time period the "window of fertility." By avoiding sexual intimacy during the window of fertility, pregnancy can be avoided. This method can also help achieve pregnancy by understanding the fertility cycle better and learning when the probability of concieving is highest. The question that various natural family planning methods are trying to answer is "How do I determine exactly when the window of fertility starts and ends?" If the window could be determined with 100% accuracy, then natural family planning would be a nearly perfect birth control method. However, the window can only be estimated (estimated though with high probability). To determine the window of fertility, these methods use such things as temperature, mucus, and cervical changes.
This is cut and pasted from the Couple to Couple League website:
First, we believe that God is the Author of nature; He is the one who put together in the marriage act what we call "making love" and "making babies." It is God who in His providence has allowed us to learn in the late 20th century about woman’s alternating fertility and infertility — and about Natural Family Planning — at the same time that other medical advances greatly increased the population survival rate. NFP allows couples to prudently regulate births without recourse to unnatural, immoral methods of birth control that interfere with the way God designed our fertility.
As astonishing as this statement may seem, throughout history natural methods have never been less effective than the unnatural, non-surgical methods. (Moral methods may not be as convenient, and they do require self-control, but that is a wonderful and rewarding virtue to acquire, as many NFP couples will attest.) In the 1930s the Ogino-Knaus Rhythm Method of NFP was as effective as the most effective "new" contraceptive barrier methods. In the 1960s, when the Pill launched the Sexual Revolution, the Sympto-Thermal Method of NFP (as taught by CCL today) was as effective as the Pill.
Religious and moral convictions guide anyone’s decisions about sexual behavior. We believe that when people are fully informed about the advantages of NFP they will see that this method best agrees with their convictions as well as their practical desires for happier marriages and healthier lives.
NFP does not mean "Not for Protestants." You don’t have to be Catholic to have strong convictions that it is wrong to use unnatural methods of birth control. "Such 'providentialists' should at least learn the rules for ecological breastfeeding, God's own way of spacing babies." For a better understanding of the moral issue of birth control and to find out the true position of the Catholic Church on this matter, please see Church Teachings on NFP. and especially the full text of Pope Paul VI's encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (On Human Life).
The Couple to Couple League (CCL) is an international, interfaith, non-profit organization dedicated to teaching Natural Family Planning (NFP) to married and engaged couples. It is essentially a volunteer organization because services are provided by professionally-trained volunteers who are supported by a relatively small staff at the international headquarters in Cincinnati, Ohio. Local Chapters of the organization consist mainly of certified Teaching Couples and Promoters, along with other supportive members.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:51:58 AM
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But the congregations are rising up against them. My pastor was arrested for child porn and he was reported by a parishoner. The people protested so loudly to the archdioceses that there have been an enormous amount of change in who is able to have contact with children. I personally had to go through 2 background checks and attend an all-day seminar on sexual predators.
Of course, all of this has nothing to do with the actual issue - a teacher signing a contract and then complaining about being fired when she fails to live up to the terms.
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tupperwarepam
PeaFixture
PeaNut 170575 - 10/1/2004
Posts: 3051 Layouts: 0
Loc: niagara region ontario
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:54:53 AM
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I agree that she should have been fired for breaking her contract.
My moral beliefs do not jive with the Catholic Church.
JMHO!!
I think that the Teacher that was fired deserved to be fired for the sole reason she broke her signed contract.
What I however disagree with is her being fired.
I know clear as MUD!!
Her Priest failed her.
Does this make sense??? I believe that if you can not follow all of the teaching of your religion then it is you Priest, Minster, Rabbi that fails you.
I would however be interested to know if she regularly attends Mass.
So, because she says she did not know the rule about IVF she lost her job.
So, she either is a *bad* Catholic or a misinformed Catholic.
Either way she broke the contract.
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:07:35 PM
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But the congregations are rising up against them. My pastor was arrested for child porn and he was reported by a parishoner. The people protested so loudly to the archdioceses that there have been an enormous amount of change in who is able to have contact with children. I personally had to go through 2 background checks and attend an all-day seminar on sexual predators.
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That's good to hear. I think it's happening more and more these days, although we just had a Priest in this area accused of sexual assault on 2 girls and someone who is in the coongregation interviewed said it was impossible. Granted, that's anectdotal evidence, so disregard.
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Of course, all of this has nothing to do with the actual issue - a teacher signing a contract and then complaining about being fired when she fails to live up to the terms.
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True dat.
I was just commenting that it's interesting what gets quickly dismissed and expelled and what doesn't. Priests are often given second chances when they break vows, often with disatrous consequences.
In fact, in the latest local case (see link), the Diocese knew of allegations of a Priest inappropriate relationship with a woman and he remained at the Church only to have later be alleged (credible allegations) of sexual misconduct with minors.
Granted, this is not related to the teacher or relevant to her situation. I'm just trying to explain my distaste.
Enough said. I'll shut-up even though I promised that 2 times already. This time I mean it...
Article
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:18:02 PM
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aka Sasha,
My point being was that I got called down for being 'judgemental' of folks who claimed to practice Catholicism but still contracept are pro-choice, pro-death penalty, etc...these same people that have no problem judging the sins of these priests. I'm not saying what they did wasn't wrong...it was horrific. The leadership of the church should be held accountable for how they handled the situation or their lack thereof.
But as I was told, it's not my place to judge...I would think that standard would be applied across the board...
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:18:56 PM
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Thanks for posting that info, Michelle. I still don't get it. The rationale seems to be that NFP is OK because it's "natural." But Clomid is "unnatural" and it's OK? It's all still stepping in the way of God's will, isn't it?
And thanks to Mapchic for your explanation. It seem that intent is also important. Catholics are supposed to leave themselves open to the possibility of life with each sexual encounter. But they're not really doing that if they abstain when life is most likely to be conceived. Their intent in their intimate life is still to prevent life. I don't see how they can be open to the possibility of life when it's not really possible to conceive. It seems like rationalization to me.
If God is the author of life, doesn't He decide when conception will occur? If all life is sacred, why try to stop potential life? Why support attempts to stand in God's way? Isn't God more powerful than any pill or calendar?
Forgive me if I seem confrontational. I'm not trying to be. I just honestly can't wrap my brain around it. I was married in a Catholic ceremony, so I went through Pre-Cana, complete with the NFP video and discussion. I had the same questions then, which my priest could not answer. He said that NFP was the recommendation of the church, but to pray on how God wanted us to handle our fertility. I guess the fact that I was already 5 months pregnant at the wedding kind of showed that we were open to babies, huh?
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Nightowl scrapper
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 103889 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 2509 Layouts: 0
Loc: California
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:22:46 PM
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I think the comparison between the pharmacist being fired for not dispensing morning after pills and the teacher being fired is a very appropriate one. Both involved employees whose personal moral values conflicted with their employer's policy. The same people slamming the church for firing the employee would be slamming the pharmacist for refusing to dispense the medication. And there is inconsistency because the 2 situations ARE analogous. The consistency is that people side with the party they personally agree with or feel empathy for, not what is an absolute principle.
This is the very reason the Vatican issues instructions on dealing with current day issues. People make decisions based on emotion. Most of you horrified by the Church teaching on this subject either used IVF, had family/friends who used IVF, or would have used IVF if you had to. Your opinion on this matter is colored by emotion, which is precisely what human beings do.
Religious truth is not driven by emotion, it is driven by precedent, and/or by what is believed to be God-inspired teaching. It does not change with technology or opinion polls. What the Vatican did was to apply centuries old teachings regarding marital relations and the value of life, teachings about the reason God gives a child to a couple (as a "gift" not a "right" ) . They applied these traditional teachings as best they could to a new technology that could not have been directly addressed in the Bible because it did not exist. I'm sure they knew that the teachings would not be popular, but I highly doubt they sat around thinking how they could cause further heartache to already hurting couples.
The fact is that reproductive technology does have implications beyond what IVF uses it for, and it is those implications of manipulating reproduction, believed to be the special responsibility of God, that were undoubtedly of concern to the men writing the catechism. They felt a line needed to be drawn, and this is how they chose to do it.
To those who see IVF as "Biblical" because it's just a modern day equivalent of what patriarchs such as Abraham and Jacob did in having multiple women bearing them children, look again at the results of those actions. Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham so he could have a son. Ishmael was not the physical child of a married couple, Sarah and Abraham, (though he may have been legally there in the legal standard of that day) he was the child of Abraham and Hagar; it's more analogous to a surrogacy contract gone terribly wrong (which I'm reasonably sure is also against Catholic teaching). Hagar took care of Ishmael, she didn't turn him over to Sarah. And the consequences of Abraham trying to manipulate God's will in this way still plague mankind. Yet Abraham's reasoning was that he just wanted a son, and doing this was perfectly legal in his day, so how could that be a bad thing?
I would be very surprised if the Abraham/Hagar situation was not just one of the Biblical references considered in determining God's plan for conceiving children within a marriage. And just because men and women in the Bible did things, you cannot assume that they were okay with God. Yes, God uses sinful people to carry out his will, but that doesn't mean life wouldn't have been even better if they hadn't done those sins. Actions have consequences, some we don't fully understand.
Now, if you've read this far and decide I am cold-bloodedly against IVF, you would be very mistaken. I do, however, see why church leaders believed it appropriate to draw a line regarding this technology. I do see how it has been misused.
Those caught up in the very real, aching desire for a child find it difficult to accept an opinion that appears to close the door to them achieving a successful pregnancy. If you're not Catholic, don't get so worked up about it and seize the opportunity to slam the church for previous wrong actions; it is sufficient to understand they have a doctrine you don't agree with. It would be well to look carefully at the specific reasoning spelled out in Jen's posts and think about it seriously, whether you agree or not. Correct, factual information is of value to our thought process.
If you are Catholic and don't agree, you must reconcile that with your own conscience. I think the fact that they provided an "out" of having intercourse just before the medical procedure is interesting, and shows a serious attempt at compassion to those affected by this.
And for the record, I am not Catholic and never have been.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5922 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:32:12 PM
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Are you saying that your personal 'reproductive rights' trump other peoples religious rights?
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Um. No.
I'm saying that I wouldn't work somewhere that tried to influence my reproductive rights.
That's why I said, "I totally agree" with the statement: "I would not work somewhere where your reproductive rights are compromised."
Sorry if that somehow wasn't clear.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5922 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:35:39 PM
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I know of a priest outside of Boston who refused to perform a baptism on twin who were conceived using IVF.
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This makes me really sad. I also found it really sad when I heard about that story where a Catholic family wanted to know if it was possible for their child with a wheat allergy to receive some other type of communion wafer and they were told no.
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PeaPoster
*rosebud*
PeaNut
PeaNut 228820 - 10/24/2005
Posts: 385 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:39:25 PM
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It is confusing, Tina.
In the end, for me, all of it was more than I could reconcile so I am no longer a practicing Catholic.
I do give the Catholic Church major points for consistency. For me, it was too much rigidity and started not to make sense logically. Even though I am no longer Catholic (in one sense, it is hard to completely shrug off your Catholic identity because so much is deeply entrenched in your psche), I do get angry about some of the rigidity. This rule-following rigidity played a big part in the woman I am today - the good and the bad! Of course, it still effects me - it made me who I am!
I think your comments about intent are very important, and it does get fuzzy. The whole "open to the possibility of life" argument is also the reason the church is against oral sex even between a married couple and, uhm, self-gratification. Now if they started to fire all eachers who engage in either of those things - Whoaaaaa, Nelly!
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huskerscrapper
Looser Liberal Lair
PeaNut 49249 - 9/16/2002
Posts: 29129 Layouts: 123
Loc: Husker Nation
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:40:21 PM
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She broke a contract. The school had a right to fire her.
I disagree with many of the Catholic teachings, but they have the right to make their rules and ask their members to follow them.
Unless it somehow affects society or people outside the Catholic faith, I don't fret over Catholic teachings.
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:47:18 PM
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My point being was that I got called down for being 'judgemental' of folks who claimed to practice Catholicism but still contracept are pro-choice, pro-death penalty, etc...these same people that have no problem judging the sins of these priests.
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Ah ha. I see!
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:49:30 PM
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I also found it really sad when I heard about that story where a Catholic family wanted to know if it was possible for their child with a wheat allergy to receive some other type of communion wafer and they were told no.
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My mom's church offers a gluten free host. During my grandmother's funeral, it caused a much needed moment of levity. Our whole family was raised in the church, so we can repeat the communion part by rote. So for the priest to suddenly throw in, "We offer a gluten-free host for those requiring it" . . . well, we all started to giggle a bit at how out of place it sounded in the holy mass.
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:50:39 PM
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Here's something from the Second Vatican Council. Basically, what it's saying is this, PLEASE-if I'm wrong, PLEASE correct me, truly...but the Church doesn't want married couple procreating just because they are physically capable of doing so. The Church expects and demands when you bring give life to a child, you take care of it responsibly and treat the child like the gift from God that it is. Raising them to be happy, productive 'warriors for the faith.' The church specifically states that family size is a private decision made by the couple and God alone. What the Church expects is that you go about your family size in a natural way. If this particular month, it is not feasible financially, emotionally, etc for you to conceive, then the Church expects you to obstain from the conjugal act. By obstaining, you are respecting your spouse's fertility...but not keeping God out of the equation. The church teaches that every conjugal act between married couples be open to new life. It is not immoral to avoid pregnancy by obstaing.
Gaudium et Spes (Second Vatican Council)
50.2 Parents should regard as their proper mission the task of transmitting human life and educating those to whom it has been transmitted. They should realize that they are thereby cooperators with the love of God the Creator, and are, so to speak, the interpreters of that love. Thus they will fulfill their task with human and Christian responsibility, and, with docile reverence toward God, will make decisions by common counsel and effort. Let them thoughtfully take into account both their own welfare and that of their children, those already born and those which the future may bring. For this accounting they need to reckon with both the material and the spiritual conditions of the times as well as of their state in life. Finally, they should consult the interests of the family group, of temporal society, and of the Church herself. The parents themselves and no one else should ultimately make this judgment in the sight of God. But in their manner of acting, spouses should be aware that they cannot proceed arbitrarily, but must always be governed according to a conscience dutifully conformed to the divine law itself, and should be submissive toward the Church's teaching office, which authentically interprets that law in the light of the Gospel. That divine law reveals and protects the integral meaning of conjugal love, and impels it toward a truly human fulfillment. Thus, trusting in divine Providence and refining the spirit of sacrifice,(12) married Christians glorify the Creator and strive toward fulfillment in Christ when with a generous human and Christian sense of responsibility they acquit themselves of the duty to procreate. Among the couples who fulfill their God-given task in this way, those merit special mention who with a gallant heart and with wise and common deliberation, undertake to bring up suitably even a relatively large family.(13)
Marriage to be sure is not instituted solely for procreation; rather, its very nature as an unbreakable compact between persons, and the welfare of the children, both demand that the mutual love of the spouses be embodied in a rightly ordered manner, that it grow and ripen. Therefore, marriage persists as a whole manner and communion of life, and maintains its value and indissolubility, even when despite the often intense desire of the couple, offspring are lacking.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:51:07 PM
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I know of a priest outside of Boston who refused to perform a baptism on twin who were conceived using IVF.
This makes me really sad. I also found it really sad when I heard about that story where a Catholic family wanted to know if it was possible for their child with a wheat allergy to receive some other type of communion wafer and they were told no.
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If a priest ever denied baptism to a child it is pretty easy to just go to their Bishop, get the child baptized and have the priest dealt with for thinking he has any right to deny the sacraments.
On the issue of wheat allergy and the Eucharist... the child is still welcome to partake in Communion by not taking the host, and instead taking the wine. No biggie. The church teaches that Christ is present completely in both species of Communion so you can take one or the other.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5922 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:51:31 PM
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Tina, that's really nice. I felt awful for the family I read about because they wanted to take part in the communion together and they weren't allowed to do so.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:55:28 PM
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The whole "open to the possibility of life" argument is also the reason the church is against oral sex even between a married couple
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Ok, so I have to respond to this one with my favorite fun fact about Catholic teachings on sex...
The Catholic Church actually teaches that it is A-Ok for a woman to recieve oral (within the bounds of married sex, in order to reach fulfillment) - and a man can too... but not to fulfillment.
And people say the Church doesn't like women!
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MNBonnie
The Daily Pea with Jon Stewart
PeaNut 64193 - 1/22/2003
Posts: 7013 Layouts: 16
Loc: Peaing in my Crocs
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:57:49 PM
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And people say the Church doesn't like women!
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That totally made me LOL! Thanks for clarifying Mapchic.
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:59:29 PM
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Mapchic...
ROFLMFO!! Gotta love that thing called the Catholic Church!!
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 1:05:12 PM
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Catholics are supposed to leave themselves open to the possibility of life with each sexual encounter. But they're not really doing that if they abstain when life is most likely to be conceived.
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Ok, you actually have the answer here already.
In every sexual encounter Catholics are supposed to be open to the possibility of life. If they abstain... then no sexual encounter is occuring.
It's a whole delicate balance between human free will (to abstain) and God's will (to create life).
I am really not the right person to explain this, because as I said above... I'm not living it. All I can do is try and explain why the church teaches what it does on these issues. However it is a really complicated, complex topic.
Maybe it will help you if you think of the fact that in the Catholic church married sex is a continuation of a sacrament. It is literally a holy act (a darn fun one at that!) and it is regulated accordingly.
If you really want to understand why NFP is OK and artificial BC is not, I would suggest you check out this article. God, Sex and Babies It is a pretty good explanation (much easier to read that Humanae Vitae!)
Here is the conclusion from that article...
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In contrast to the world’s "disincarnate" view of love, the Church teaches that matter matters. What we do with our bodies expresses our deepest held convictions about ourselves, God, the meaning of love, and the ordering of the universe. When the Church’s sacramental view of the body is taken seriously, we understand that sexual union is not only a biological process, but a profound theological process: "This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the Church" (Eph. 5:32).
The Church’s well-balanced teaching on responsible parenthood is a divine gift given to protect the supreme value of this sign. Imbalances on both extremes must be avoided if we are to ensure fidelity to the sign of marital love and an ever-clearer proclamation of the divine mystery in the world.
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*rosebud*
PeaNut
PeaNut 228820 - 10/24/2005
Posts: 385 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 1:05:28 PM
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The Catholic Church actually teaches that it is A-Ok for a woman to recieve oral (within the bounds of married sex, in order to reach fulfillment) - and a man can too... but not to fulfillment.
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Okay, I did know that!! I did mean specifically men reaching to fulfillment because of the life argument.
Really, my only issue with this particular case is my knowledge that things like this are usually unfairly enforced.
If there are no fruits of your sin, your career and reputation are not in jeopardy and relatively few Catholics would care about those "sins" anyway (IVF, birth control, what two married people do in their own bedroom!).
If there are fruits of those sin, there's some sort of scandal. Happened in high school all the time - the girls who were pregnant and wanted to keep their babies were shipped off to a different all-girls school, not allowed to "walk" for graduation, etc. Never heard of anything happening to the girls' boyfriends. My opinion is probably colored by all of that, I'm sure.
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The Catholic Church actually teaches that it is A-Ok for a woman to recieve oral (within the bounds of married sex, in order to reach fulfillment) - and a man can too... but not to fulfillment.
Bwwhhahahaha.....guess i'd rather be a morman then at least i can still give my hubby blowjobs!!!!
Why are you cutting and pasting other threads that have nothing to do with the blogger's original thread? VERY annoying. If you want to do this start your own blog!
What's with all the copying nd pasting? It's getting old.
mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:01:41 AM
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ALL of the "teachings" of the Catholic Church? Really? All? And what constitutes "teaching" anyway? Are teachers being routinely fired for using birth control, having premarital sex, missing mass on Holy Days of obligation, receiving Eucharist with mortal sin on your soul without first receiving reconciliation...where does it end?
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Yes, really all. What constitutes a teaching of the Church is conveniently listed in the Catechism.
Are teachers being fired for violating different rules? Yes. There was the case of the male teacher in MA fired because he got his girlfriend pregnant (sex outside of marriage), birth control is a tricky one... nobody would know unless you told them. However, if you do publicise that then yes, you are liable to get fired.
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I agree. I would not work somewhere where your reproductive rights are compromised. It's none of their business how her child was conceived.
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This is an interesting quote.
Are you saying that your personal 'reproductive rights' trump other peoples religious rights?
I actually think that his has a great deal in common with the stories of pharmacists who are being fired for not dispensing the morning after pill.
In both cases the private employer has the right to expect their employees will follow certain norms of conduct... and when the employees fails to do that... they are liable to get fired.
I wonder how many people who are outraged that this teacher is getting fired also believed that pharmacists who refuse to dispense BC and the Morning After pill should be fired?
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Anewday
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 246606 - 1/31/2006
Posts: 2473 Layouts: 13
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:14:25 AM
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I wonder how many people who are outraged that this teacher is getting fired also believed that pharmacists who refuse to dispense BC and the Morning After pill should be fired?
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I believe the employer in both instances has the right to fire the employee.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:21:21 AM
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Let me be clear - I totally believe that private employers have the right to fire employees for not living up to the terms of their contracts... Both if they are teachers as in this case, or if they are pharmicists in the other.
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MNBonnie
The Daily Pea with Jon Stewart
PeaNut 64193 - 1/22/2003
Posts: 7013 Layouts: 16
Loc: Peaing in my Crocs
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:21:51 AM
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I feel the same as Lauren. I think the Catholic school should be allowed to fire the teacher and the pharmacy has the right to fire the pharmacist if they refuse to fill perscriptions. But I also feel a Catholic hospital has every right in the world to not perform abortions, stock morning after pills or any kind of birth control pill.
Unless abuse or violence is being done within a church, the government should stay the hell out of churches' business, and the churches should do the same of the government, IMO.
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KahluaKoala
PeaAddict
PeaNut 187179 - 1/23/2005
Posts: 1582 Layouts: 0
Loc: Miami Florida
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:25:11 AM
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I Vote for her baby to enter Seminary School and become the Pope ......
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*rosebud*
PeaNut
PeaNut 228820 - 10/24/2005
Posts: 385 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:25:33 AM
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re teachers being fired for violating different rules? Yes. There was the case of the male teacher in MA fired because he got his girlfriend pregnant (sex outside of marriage), birth control is a tricky one... nobody would know unless you told them. However, if you do publicise that then yes, you are liable to get fired.
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I agree that you are liable to get fired. However, look at the situation you described above. If this guy had only broken two rules rather than one (premarital sex and birth control or premarital sex and abortion), he could have kept his job.
That's why I think the enforcement gets so tricky and can border on the absurd. Break every last one quietly and you are golden. Break one publicly - even one that many Catholics routinely break and feel no moral dilemma in breaking; ones that some priests even tell parishioners to follow their own consciouses about - and you lose your job. And then you are jobless and the child suffers - the blameless child.
Yes, they absolutely have the right - but I really do think there should be some pragmatism and compassion in the application of the rules.
Full disclaimer: I was raised Catholic and educated in Catholic Schools for 17 years (kindergarten through college). I was never a particularly "good Catholic" and completely left the religion about 5 years ago. But I can't deny that the upbringing and teachings still profoundly effect me.
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9grtkds
PeaNut
PeaNut 249528 - 2/18/2006
Posts: 367 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:31:54 AM
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I have always been told that a portion of the Catholic Church's rules on IVF are.....the number of embryos created. I have a number of friends who are now struggling with what to do with their extra embryos. They are adamently opposed to destroying them, they do not feel that they want to enlarge their families and embryo adoption seems too hard.
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Peas OnEarth
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 179732 - 12/4/2004
Posts: 5591 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:33:04 AM
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Wow, that's taking things pretty far there! Sexual relations are a gift of marriage, to be shared with one's spouse, not with anyone outside the marriage, including children. God does not condone molesting children.
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I was speaking the scandal with priests. I am sorry but the part I originally quoted where it said that fertility treatments are a mortal sin really pissed me off. Again, I am not Catholic and they can feel anyway they want. It is just ironic to me what they consider a mortal sin. With all the people creating life and throwing it away, not treating their children well, divorce etc.. I just find it odd that a husband and wife who love eachother trying to have a child is a mortal sin. I am not bashing every single Catholic. Some of my family are Catholics. I do think whoever wrote that docterine on infertility is mean and crazy.
I would respect the Catholic church more if the Priests who were accoused of molestation had been prosecuted as opposed to moved to other parishes. I also have a problem with any church or church leader who knows that someone is being accused of molestation and legal action is not taken. All organized religion is pretty hypocritical in my view.
As for the teacher, the school she works at has a right to fire her.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:55:54 AM
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the part I originally quoted where it said that fertility treatments are a mortal sin really pissed me off. Again, I am not Catholic and they can feel anyway they want. It is just ironic to me what they consider a mortal sin. With all the people creating life and throwing it away, not treating their children well, divorce etc..
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Can I ask a question here... Why does it piss you off?
If you are not Catholic why would it piss you off what the teachings of the Catholic Church are?
I mean they don't apply to you, you have no obligation to follow them, there is no reason they should anger you in any way because they don't imparct your life in any way.
Anyway, all those other societal problems you listed are also considered sins in the eyes of the church. So you can't blame them for not speaking out against them and instead speaking out against IVF.
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I am not bashing every single Catholic.
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No, just those who follow the teachings of the Church.
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Peas de Resistance
BucketHead
PeaNut 251396 - 3/2/2006
Posts: 625 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:57:25 AM
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I know of a priest outside of Boston who refused to perform a baptism on twin who were conceived using IVF.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:05:01 AM
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My children attend school in the system where this teacher was fired. The contract she signed clearly stated that everyone must uphold the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Contracts are given out annually and the teachers have a month to go through it before signing and turning it back into the system. Although I do not agree with the church's stand on IVF, the system does have the right to fire her for not upholding her contract. Ironically, the president of the system has admitted that it is quite likely that there are teachers in the system who use birth control or have had a vascetomy, and since the system doesn't know about it, there is nothing they can do about it. However, I would guess if it came to light those teachers would be fired as well.
Lisa
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:23:01 AM
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I thought that sterilization was OK for Catholics? Somebody could be fired for having a vasectomy too?
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:24:24 AM
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I thought that sterilization was OK for Catholics?
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Nope, not OK.
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:25:02 AM
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Thanks Mapchic.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:26:54 AM
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I may be wrong, but I thought that the only acceptable form of birth control is the rhythm method. I do know that Catholic hospitals will not do a tubal ligation.
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:26:55 AM
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Ok, so I'm confused. If no birth control is OK, why is natural family planning OK? Isn't it still standing in God's way of creating life? What is the difference between taking a pill and abstaining while ovulation? It's still self-will controlling fertility.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:27:25 AM
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I may be wrong, but I thought that the only acceptable form of birth control is the rhythm method. I do know that Catholic hospitals will not do a tubal ligation.
Lisa
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mtomseth
BucketHead
PeaNut 191190 - 2/14/2005
Posts: 953 Layouts: 0
Loc: Pacific Northwest
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:30:33 AM
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I Vote for her baby to enter Seminary School and become the Pope ......
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That will never happen... both of her babies are girls.
I believe the Catholic school has the right to enforce the employment contract which states employees will abide by church rules. This teacher needs to find a teaching position at a school that isn't opposed to IVF.
Because I believe in the right to make my own reproductive choices I would never go to work for an organization that disagrees with my choices.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:34:35 AM
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Tina, I do not have any answers for you because it confuses me as well.
Lisa
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:34:39 AM
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Ok, so I'm confused. If no birth control is OK, why is natural family planning OK? Isn't it still standing in God's way of creating life? What is the difference between taking a pill and abstaining while ovulation? It's still self-will controlling fertility.
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Here is the short answer... because when you are utilizing NFP every time you engage in sex you are open to the possibility of life. Without barriers of any kind between you and your spouse and God's will.
There is a lot more to it, and honestly someone who is married and practicing NFP can answer better than I. Because honestly, I haven't paid much attention to those teachings because as of now... they don't apply to me!
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Peas OnEarth
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 179732 - 12/4/2004
Posts: 5591 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:38:33 AM
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Can I ask a question here... Why does it piss you off?
If you are not Catholic why would it piss you off what the teachings of the Catholic Church are?
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It pisses me off because right now I am a week from finding out if I am pregnant and I am hormonal and stressed etc.. So are Catholics going to look at my family and say we are a sin or not conceived of love etc.. It upsets me that any other person would feel this way about helping loving couples conceive life.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:41:46 AM
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Why in the world would you care what Catholics think when you aren't even one of them? It's not like we are going to send an angry mob with torches and pitchforks to your door.
I certainly don't sit around all worried everytime I eat a ham sandwich I'm going to be judged by Jewish people or Muslims.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:45:10 AM
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So are Catholics going to look at my family and say we are a sin or not conceived of love etc.. It upsets me that any other person would feel this way about helping loving couples conceive life.
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Why should you care what other people think?
Anyway, I am not judging you or anyone else who chooses to have IVF. That's not my responsiblity.
I am just saying to for *me* it would be a sin (because I am working hard to faithfully follow the teachings of the Catholic Church).
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:46:32 AM
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As I said in an earlier post, I do not agree with the church's teachings on IVF. It should not matter whether assistance is needed or not to conceive a child, they are all God's children and should be loved. We should be more concerned about the parents who abuse their children, not on how a woman became pregnant.
Lisa
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:48:12 AM
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I think it's a little ironic that folks are so quick to judge priests who have sinned but yet are so quick to "not want to be judged by others for their sins..."
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Not sure I understand what you mean by this, but yes, call me judgmental. I cannot think of a more horrible sin/crime than to violate a child especially when you have taken a vow to uphold the teachings of the church and are in a position where you are a trusted member of the community.
I think the reason the pedophile Priest issue is being discussed is because the Church protected these Priests, versus protecting the child. So when you come down on IVF, it rings a little hollow.
But I'm not a Catholic. I don't dislike Catholism, just don't care for anyone that protects sexual predators. I understand pedophilia is not isolated to one religion. I just wish that the congregations would rise up against these horrible creatures versus making excuses and protecting them.
That being said, I do agree that you sign a contract, you abide by it.
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:48:55 AM
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This is cut and pasted from http://www.bygpub.com/natural/index.htm:
The idea behind natural family planning is very simple. A woman is fertile for only about 100 to 120 hours during a month. Let's call this time period the "window of fertility." By avoiding sexual intimacy during the window of fertility, pregnancy can be avoided. This method can also help achieve pregnancy by understanding the fertility cycle better and learning when the probability of concieving is highest. The question that various natural family planning methods are trying to answer is "How do I determine exactly when the window of fertility starts and ends?" If the window could be determined with 100% accuracy, then natural family planning would be a nearly perfect birth control method. However, the window can only be estimated (estimated though with high probability). To determine the window of fertility, these methods use such things as temperature, mucus, and cervical changes.
This is cut and pasted from the Couple to Couple League website:
First, we believe that God is the Author of nature; He is the one who put together in the marriage act what we call "making love" and "making babies." It is God who in His providence has allowed us to learn in the late 20th century about woman’s alternating fertility and infertility — and about Natural Family Planning — at the same time that other medical advances greatly increased the population survival rate. NFP allows couples to prudently regulate births without recourse to unnatural, immoral methods of birth control that interfere with the way God designed our fertility.
As astonishing as this statement may seem, throughout history natural methods have never been less effective than the unnatural, non-surgical methods. (Moral methods may not be as convenient, and they do require self-control, but that is a wonderful and rewarding virtue to acquire, as many NFP couples will attest.) In the 1930s the Ogino-Knaus Rhythm Method of NFP was as effective as the most effective "new" contraceptive barrier methods. In the 1960s, when the Pill launched the Sexual Revolution, the Sympto-Thermal Method of NFP (as taught by CCL today) was as effective as the Pill.
Religious and moral convictions guide anyone’s decisions about sexual behavior. We believe that when people are fully informed about the advantages of NFP they will see that this method best agrees with their convictions as well as their practical desires for happier marriages and healthier lives.
NFP does not mean "Not for Protestants." You don’t have to be Catholic to have strong convictions that it is wrong to use unnatural methods of birth control. "Such 'providentialists' should at least learn the rules for ecological breastfeeding, God's own way of spacing babies." For a better understanding of the moral issue of birth control and to find out the true position of the Catholic Church on this matter, please see Church Teachings on NFP. and especially the full text of Pope Paul VI's encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (On Human Life).
The Couple to Couple League (CCL) is an international, interfaith, non-profit organization dedicated to teaching Natural Family Planning (NFP) to married and engaged couples. It is essentially a volunteer organization because services are provided by professionally-trained volunteers who are supported by a relatively small staff at the international headquarters in Cincinnati, Ohio. Local Chapters of the organization consist mainly of certified Teaching Couples and Promoters, along with other supportive members.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:51:58 AM
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But the congregations are rising up against them. My pastor was arrested for child porn and he was reported by a parishoner. The people protested so loudly to the archdioceses that there have been an enormous amount of change in who is able to have contact with children. I personally had to go through 2 background checks and attend an all-day seminar on sexual predators.
Of course, all of this has nothing to do with the actual issue - a teacher signing a contract and then complaining about being fired when she fails to live up to the terms.
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tupperwarepam
PeaFixture
PeaNut 170575 - 10/1/2004
Posts: 3051 Layouts: 0
Loc: niagara region ontario
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:54:53 AM
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I agree that she should have been fired for breaking her contract.
My moral beliefs do not jive with the Catholic Church.
JMHO!!
I think that the Teacher that was fired deserved to be fired for the sole reason she broke her signed contract.
What I however disagree with is her being fired.
I know clear as MUD!!
Her Priest failed her.
Does this make sense??? I believe that if you can not follow all of the teaching of your religion then it is you Priest, Minster, Rabbi that fails you.
I would however be interested to know if she regularly attends Mass.
So, because she says she did not know the rule about IVF she lost her job.
So, she either is a *bad* Catholic or a misinformed Catholic.
Either way she broke the contract.
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:07:35 PM
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But the congregations are rising up against them. My pastor was arrested for child porn and he was reported by a parishoner. The people protested so loudly to the archdioceses that there have been an enormous amount of change in who is able to have contact with children. I personally had to go through 2 background checks and attend an all-day seminar on sexual predators.
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That's good to hear. I think it's happening more and more these days, although we just had a Priest in this area accused of sexual assault on 2 girls and someone who is in the coongregation interviewed said it was impossible. Granted, that's anectdotal evidence, so disregard.
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Of course, all of this has nothing to do with the actual issue - a teacher signing a contract and then complaining about being fired when she fails to live up to the terms.
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True dat.
I was just commenting that it's interesting what gets quickly dismissed and expelled and what doesn't. Priests are often given second chances when they break vows, often with disatrous consequences.
In fact, in the latest local case (see link), the Diocese knew of allegations of a Priest inappropriate relationship with a woman and he remained at the Church only to have later be alleged (credible allegations) of sexual misconduct with minors.
Granted, this is not related to the teacher or relevant to her situation. I'm just trying to explain my distaste.
Enough said. I'll shut-up even though I promised that 2 times already. This time I mean it...
Article
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:18:02 PM
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aka Sasha,
My point being was that I got called down for being 'judgemental' of folks who claimed to practice Catholicism but still contracept are pro-choice, pro-death penalty, etc...these same people that have no problem judging the sins of these priests. I'm not saying what they did wasn't wrong...it was horrific. The leadership of the church should be held accountable for how they handled the situation or their lack thereof.
But as I was told, it's not my place to judge...I would think that standard would be applied across the board...
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:18:56 PM
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Thanks for posting that info, Michelle. I still don't get it. The rationale seems to be that NFP is OK because it's "natural." But Clomid is "unnatural" and it's OK? It's all still stepping in the way of God's will, isn't it?
And thanks to Mapchic for your explanation. It seem that intent is also important. Catholics are supposed to leave themselves open to the possibility of life with each sexual encounter. But they're not really doing that if they abstain when life is most likely to be conceived. Their intent in their intimate life is still to prevent life. I don't see how they can be open to the possibility of life when it's not really possible to conceive. It seems like rationalization to me.
If God is the author of life, doesn't He decide when conception will occur? If all life is sacred, why try to stop potential life? Why support attempts to stand in God's way? Isn't God more powerful than any pill or calendar?
Forgive me if I seem confrontational. I'm not trying to be. I just honestly can't wrap my brain around it. I was married in a Catholic ceremony, so I went through Pre-Cana, complete with the NFP video and discussion. I had the same questions then, which my priest could not answer. He said that NFP was the recommendation of the church, but to pray on how God wanted us to handle our fertility. I guess the fact that I was already 5 months pregnant at the wedding kind of showed that we were open to babies, huh?
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Nightowl scrapper
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 103889 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 2509 Layouts: 0
Loc: California
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:22:46 PM
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I think the comparison between the pharmacist being fired for not dispensing morning after pills and the teacher being fired is a very appropriate one. Both involved employees whose personal moral values conflicted with their employer's policy. The same people slamming the church for firing the employee would be slamming the pharmacist for refusing to dispense the medication. And there is inconsistency because the 2 situations ARE analogous. The consistency is that people side with the party they personally agree with or feel empathy for, not what is an absolute principle.
This is the very reason the Vatican issues instructions on dealing with current day issues. People make decisions based on emotion. Most of you horrified by the Church teaching on this subject either used IVF, had family/friends who used IVF, or would have used IVF if you had to. Your opinion on this matter is colored by emotion, which is precisely what human beings do.
Religious truth is not driven by emotion, it is driven by precedent, and/or by what is believed to be God-inspired teaching. It does not change with technology or opinion polls. What the Vatican did was to apply centuries old teachings regarding marital relations and the value of life, teachings about the reason God gives a child to a couple (as a "gift" not a "right" ) . They applied these traditional teachings as best they could to a new technology that could not have been directly addressed in the Bible because it did not exist. I'm sure they knew that the teachings would not be popular, but I highly doubt they sat around thinking how they could cause further heartache to already hurting couples.
The fact is that reproductive technology does have implications beyond what IVF uses it for, and it is those implications of manipulating reproduction, believed to be the special responsibility of God, that were undoubtedly of concern to the men writing the catechism. They felt a line needed to be drawn, and this is how they chose to do it.
To those who see IVF as "Biblical" because it's just a modern day equivalent of what patriarchs such as Abraham and Jacob did in having multiple women bearing them children, look again at the results of those actions. Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham so he could have a son. Ishmael was not the physical child of a married couple, Sarah and Abraham, (though he may have been legally there in the legal standard of that day) he was the child of Abraham and Hagar; it's more analogous to a surrogacy contract gone terribly wrong (which I'm reasonably sure is also against Catholic teaching). Hagar took care of Ishmael, she didn't turn him over to Sarah. And the consequences of Abraham trying to manipulate God's will in this way still plague mankind. Yet Abraham's reasoning was that he just wanted a son, and doing this was perfectly legal in his day, so how could that be a bad thing?
I would be very surprised if the Abraham/Hagar situation was not just one of the Biblical references considered in determining God's plan for conceiving children within a marriage. And just because men and women in the Bible did things, you cannot assume that they were okay with God. Yes, God uses sinful people to carry out his will, but that doesn't mean life wouldn't have been even better if they hadn't done those sins. Actions have consequences, some we don't fully understand.
Now, if you've read this far and decide I am cold-bloodedly against IVF, you would be very mistaken. I do, however, see why church leaders believed it appropriate to draw a line regarding this technology. I do see how it has been misused.
Those caught up in the very real, aching desire for a child find it difficult to accept an opinion that appears to close the door to them achieving a successful pregnancy. If you're not Catholic, don't get so worked up about it and seize the opportunity to slam the church for previous wrong actions; it is sufficient to understand they have a doctrine you don't agree with. It would be well to look carefully at the specific reasoning spelled out in Jen's posts and think about it seriously, whether you agree or not. Correct, factual information is of value to our thought process.
If you are Catholic and don't agree, you must reconcile that with your own conscience. I think the fact that they provided an "out" of having intercourse just before the medical procedure is interesting, and shows a serious attempt at compassion to those affected by this.
And for the record, I am not Catholic and never have been.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5922 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:32:12 PM
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Are you saying that your personal 'reproductive rights' trump other peoples religious rights?
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Um. No.
I'm saying that I wouldn't work somewhere that tried to influence my reproductive rights.
That's why I said, "I totally agree" with the statement: "I would not work somewhere where your reproductive rights are compromised."
Sorry if that somehow wasn't clear.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5922 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:35:39 PM
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I know of a priest outside of Boston who refused to perform a baptism on twin who were conceived using IVF.
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This makes me really sad. I also found it really sad when I heard about that story where a Catholic family wanted to know if it was possible for their child with a wheat allergy to receive some other type of communion wafer and they were told no.
1:15 PM
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PeaPoster
*rosebud*
PeaNut
PeaNut 228820 - 10/24/2005
Posts: 385 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:39:25 PM
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It is confusing, Tina.
In the end, for me, all of it was more than I could reconcile so I am no longer a practicing Catholic.
I do give the Catholic Church major points for consistency. For me, it was too much rigidity and started not to make sense logically. Even though I am no longer Catholic (in one sense, it is hard to completely shrug off your Catholic identity because so much is deeply entrenched in your psche), I do get angry about some of the rigidity. This rule-following rigidity played a big part in the woman I am today - the good and the bad! Of course, it still effects me - it made me who I am!
I think your comments about intent are very important, and it does get fuzzy. The whole "open to the possibility of life" argument is also the reason the church is against oral sex even between a married couple and, uhm, self-gratification. Now if they started to fire all eachers who engage in either of those things - Whoaaaaa, Nelly!
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huskerscrapper
Looser Liberal Lair
PeaNut 49249 - 9/16/2002
Posts: 29129 Layouts: 123
Loc: Husker Nation
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:40:21 PM
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She broke a contract. The school had a right to fire her.
I disagree with many of the Catholic teachings, but they have the right to make their rules and ask their members to follow them.
Unless it somehow affects society or people outside the Catholic faith, I don't fret over Catholic teachings.
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:47:18 PM
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My point being was that I got called down for being 'judgemental' of folks who claimed to practice Catholicism but still contracept are pro-choice, pro-death penalty, etc...these same people that have no problem judging the sins of these priests.
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Ah ha. I see!
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:49:30 PM
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I also found it really sad when I heard about that story where a Catholic family wanted to know if it was possible for their child with a wheat allergy to receive some other type of communion wafer and they were told no.
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My mom's church offers a gluten free host. During my grandmother's funeral, it caused a much needed moment of levity. Our whole family was raised in the church, so we can repeat the communion part by rote. So for the priest to suddenly throw in, "We offer a gluten-free host for those requiring it" . . . well, we all started to giggle a bit at how out of place it sounded in the holy mass.
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:50:39 PM
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Here's something from the Second Vatican Council. Basically, what it's saying is this, PLEASE-if I'm wrong, PLEASE correct me, truly...but the Church doesn't want married couple procreating just because they are physically capable of doing so. The Church expects and demands when you bring give life to a child, you take care of it responsibly and treat the child like the gift from God that it is. Raising them to be happy, productive 'warriors for the faith.' The church specifically states that family size is a private decision made by the couple and God alone. What the Church expects is that you go about your family size in a natural way. If this particular month, it is not feasible financially, emotionally, etc for you to conceive, then the Church expects you to obstain from the conjugal act. By obstaining, you are respecting your spouse's fertility...but not keeping God out of the equation. The church teaches that every conjugal act between married couples be open to new life. It is not immoral to avoid pregnancy by obstaing.
Gaudium et Spes (Second Vatican Council)
50.2 Parents should regard as their proper mission the task of transmitting human life and educating those to whom it has been transmitted. They should realize that they are thereby cooperators with the love of God the Creator, and are, so to speak, the interpreters of that love. Thus they will fulfill their task with human and Christian responsibility, and, with docile reverence toward God, will make decisions by common counsel and effort. Let them thoughtfully take into account both their own welfare and that of their children, those already born and those which the future may bring. For this accounting they need to reckon with both the material and the spiritual conditions of the times as well as of their state in life. Finally, they should consult the interests of the family group, of temporal society, and of the Church herself. The parents themselves and no one else should ultimately make this judgment in the sight of God. But in their manner of acting, spouses should be aware that they cannot proceed arbitrarily, but must always be governed according to a conscience dutifully conformed to the divine law itself, and should be submissive toward the Church's teaching office, which authentically interprets that law in the light of the Gospel. That divine law reveals and protects the integral meaning of conjugal love, and impels it toward a truly human fulfillment. Thus, trusting in divine Providence and refining the spirit of sacrifice,(12) married Christians glorify the Creator and strive toward fulfillment in Christ when with a generous human and Christian sense of responsibility they acquit themselves of the duty to procreate. Among the couples who fulfill their God-given task in this way, those merit special mention who with a gallant heart and with wise and common deliberation, undertake to bring up suitably even a relatively large family.(13)
Marriage to be sure is not instituted solely for procreation; rather, its very nature as an unbreakable compact between persons, and the welfare of the children, both demand that the mutual love of the spouses be embodied in a rightly ordered manner, that it grow and ripen. Therefore, marriage persists as a whole manner and communion of life, and maintains its value and indissolubility, even when despite the often intense desire of the couple, offspring are lacking.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:51:07 PM
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I know of a priest outside of Boston who refused to perform a baptism on twin who were conceived using IVF.
This makes me really sad. I also found it really sad when I heard about that story where a Catholic family wanted to know if it was possible for their child with a wheat allergy to receive some other type of communion wafer and they were told no.
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If a priest ever denied baptism to a child it is pretty easy to just go to their Bishop, get the child baptized and have the priest dealt with for thinking he has any right to deny the sacraments.
On the issue of wheat allergy and the Eucharist... the child is still welcome to partake in Communion by not taking the host, and instead taking the wine. No biggie. The church teaches that Christ is present completely in both species of Communion so you can take one or the other.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5922 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:51:31 PM
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Tina, that's really nice. I felt awful for the family I read about because they wanted to take part in the communion together and they weren't allowed to do so.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:55:28 PM
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The whole "open to the possibility of life" argument is also the reason the church is against oral sex even between a married couple
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Ok, so I have to respond to this one with my favorite fun fact about Catholic teachings on sex...
The Catholic Church actually teaches that it is A-Ok for a woman to recieve oral (within the bounds of married sex, in order to reach fulfillment) - and a man can too... but not to fulfillment.
And people say the Church doesn't like women!
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MNBonnie
The Daily Pea with Jon Stewart
PeaNut 64193 - 1/22/2003
Posts: 7013 Layouts: 16
Loc: Peaing in my Crocs
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:57:49 PM
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And people say the Church doesn't like women!
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That totally made me LOL! Thanks for clarifying Mapchic.
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:59:29 PM
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Mapchic...
ROFLMFO!! Gotta love that thing called the Catholic Church!!
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 1:05:12 PM
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Catholics are supposed to leave themselves open to the possibility of life with each sexual encounter. But they're not really doing that if they abstain when life is most likely to be conceived.
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Ok, you actually have the answer here already.
In every sexual encounter Catholics are supposed to be open to the possibility of life. If they abstain... then no sexual encounter is occuring.
It's a whole delicate balance between human free will (to abstain) and God's will (to create life).
I am really not the right person to explain this, because as I said above... I'm not living it. All I can do is try and explain why the church teaches what it does on these issues. However it is a really complicated, complex topic.
Maybe it will help you if you think of the fact that in the Catholic church married sex is a continuation of a sacrament. It is literally a holy act (a darn fun one at that!) and it is regulated accordingly.
If you really want to understand why NFP is OK and artificial BC is not, I would suggest you check out this article. God, Sex and Babies It is a pretty good explanation (much easier to read that Humanae Vitae!)
Here is the conclusion from that article...
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In contrast to the world’s "disincarnate" view of love, the Church teaches that matter matters. What we do with our bodies expresses our deepest held convictions about ourselves, God, the meaning of love, and the ordering of the universe. When the Church’s sacramental view of the body is taken seriously, we understand that sexual union is not only a biological process, but a profound theological process: "This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the Church" (Eph. 5:32).
The Church’s well-balanced teaching on responsible parenthood is a divine gift given to protect the supreme value of this sign. Imbalances on both extremes must be avoided if we are to ensure fidelity to the sign of marital love and an ever-clearer proclamation of the divine mystery in the world.
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*rosebud*
PeaNut
PeaNut 228820 - 10/24/2005
Posts: 385 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 1:05:28 PM
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The Catholic Church actually teaches that it is A-Ok for a woman to recieve oral (within the bounds of married sex, in order to reach fulfillment) - and a man can too... but not to fulfillment.
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Okay, I did know that!! I did mean specifically men reaching to fulfillment because of the life argument.
Really, my only issue with this particular case is my knowledge that things like this are usually unfairly enforced.
If there are no fruits of your sin, your career and reputation are not in jeopardy and relatively few Catholics would care about those "sins" anyway (IVF, birth control, what two married people do in their own bedroom!).
If there are fruits of those sin, there's some sort of scandal. Happened in high school all the time - the girls who were pregnant and wanted to keep their babies were shipped off to a different all-girls school, not allowed to "walk" for graduation, etc. Never heard of anything happening to the girls' boyfriends. My opinion is probably colored by all of that, I'm sure.
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1:15 PM
mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:01:41 AM
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ALL of the "teachings" of the Catholic Church? Really? All? And what constitutes "teaching" anyway? Are teachers being routinely fired for using birth control, having premarital sex, missing mass on Holy Days of obligation, receiving Eucharist with mortal sin on your soul without first receiving reconciliation...where does it end?
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Yes, really all. What constitutes a teaching of the Church is conveniently listed in the Catechism.
Are teachers being fired for violating different rules? Yes. There was the case of the male teacher in MA fired because he got his girlfriend pregnant (sex outside of marriage), birth control is a tricky one... nobody would know unless you told them. However, if you do publicise that then yes, you are liable to get fired.
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I agree. I would not work somewhere where your reproductive rights are compromised. It's none of their business how her child was conceived.
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This is an interesting quote.
Are you saying that your personal 'reproductive rights' trump other peoples religious rights?
I actually think that his has a great deal in common with the stories of pharmacists who are being fired for not dispensing the morning after pill.
In both cases the private employer has the right to expect their employees will follow certain norms of conduct... and when the employees fails to do that... they are liable to get fired.
I wonder how many people who are outraged that this teacher is getting fired also believed that pharmacists who refuse to dispense BC and the Morning After pill should be fired?
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Anewday
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 246606 - 1/31/2006
Posts: 2473 Layouts: 13
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:14:25 AM
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I wonder how many people who are outraged that this teacher is getting fired also believed that pharmacists who refuse to dispense BC and the Morning After pill should be fired?
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I believe the employer in both instances has the right to fire the employee.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:21:21 AM
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Let me be clear - I totally believe that private employers have the right to fire employees for not living up to the terms of their contracts... Both if they are teachers as in this case, or if they are pharmicists in the other.
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MNBonnie
The Daily Pea with Jon Stewart
PeaNut 64193 - 1/22/2003
Posts: 7013 Layouts: 16
Loc: Peaing in my Crocs
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:21:51 AM
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I feel the same as Lauren. I think the Catholic school should be allowed to fire the teacher and the pharmacy has the right to fire the pharmacist if they refuse to fill perscriptions. But I also feel a Catholic hospital has every right in the world to not perform abortions, stock morning after pills or any kind of birth control pill.
Unless abuse or violence is being done within a church, the government should stay the hell out of churches' business, and the churches should do the same of the government, IMO.
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KahluaKoala
PeaAddict
PeaNut 187179 - 1/23/2005
Posts: 1582 Layouts: 0
Loc: Miami Florida
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:25:11 AM
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I Vote for her baby to enter Seminary School and become the Pope ......
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*rosebud*
PeaNut
PeaNut 228820 - 10/24/2005
Posts: 385 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:25:33 AM
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re teachers being fired for violating different rules? Yes. There was the case of the male teacher in MA fired because he got his girlfriend pregnant (sex outside of marriage), birth control is a tricky one... nobody would know unless you told them. However, if you do publicise that then yes, you are liable to get fired.
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I agree that you are liable to get fired. However, look at the situation you described above. If this guy had only broken two rules rather than one (premarital sex and birth control or premarital sex and abortion), he could have kept his job.
That's why I think the enforcement gets so tricky and can border on the absurd. Break every last one quietly and you are golden. Break one publicly - even one that many Catholics routinely break and feel no moral dilemma in breaking; ones that some priests even tell parishioners to follow their own consciouses about - and you lose your job. And then you are jobless and the child suffers - the blameless child.
Yes, they absolutely have the right - but I really do think there should be some pragmatism and compassion in the application of the rules.
Full disclaimer: I was raised Catholic and educated in Catholic Schools for 17 years (kindergarten through college). I was never a particularly "good Catholic" and completely left the religion about 5 years ago. But I can't deny that the upbringing and teachings still profoundly effect me.
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9grtkds
PeaNut
PeaNut 249528 - 2/18/2006
Posts: 367 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:31:54 AM
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I have always been told that a portion of the Catholic Church's rules on IVF are.....the number of embryos created. I have a number of friends who are now struggling with what to do with their extra embryos. They are adamently opposed to destroying them, they do not feel that they want to enlarge their families and embryo adoption seems too hard.
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Peas OnEarth
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 179732 - 12/4/2004
Posts: 5591 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:33:04 AM
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Wow, that's taking things pretty far there! Sexual relations are a gift of marriage, to be shared with one's spouse, not with anyone outside the marriage, including children. God does not condone molesting children.
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I was speaking the scandal with priests. I am sorry but the part I originally quoted where it said that fertility treatments are a mortal sin really pissed me off. Again, I am not Catholic and they can feel anyway they want. It is just ironic to me what they consider a mortal sin. With all the people creating life and throwing it away, not treating their children well, divorce etc.. I just find it odd that a husband and wife who love eachother trying to have a child is a mortal sin. I am not bashing every single Catholic. Some of my family are Catholics. I do think whoever wrote that docterine on infertility is mean and crazy.
I would respect the Catholic church more if the Priests who were accoused of molestation had been prosecuted as opposed to moved to other parishes. I also have a problem with any church or church leader who knows that someone is being accused of molestation and legal action is not taken. All organized religion is pretty hypocritical in my view.
As for the teacher, the school she works at has a right to fire her.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:55:54 AM
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the part I originally quoted where it said that fertility treatments are a mortal sin really pissed me off. Again, I am not Catholic and they can feel anyway they want. It is just ironic to me what they consider a mortal sin. With all the people creating life and throwing it away, not treating their children well, divorce etc..
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Can I ask a question here... Why does it piss you off?
If you are not Catholic why would it piss you off what the teachings of the Catholic Church are?
I mean they don't apply to you, you have no obligation to follow them, there is no reason they should anger you in any way because they don't imparct your life in any way.
Anyway, all those other societal problems you listed are also considered sins in the eyes of the church. So you can't blame them for not speaking out against them and instead speaking out against IVF.
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I am not bashing every single Catholic.
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No, just those who follow the teachings of the Church.
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Peas de Resistance
BucketHead
PeaNut 251396 - 3/2/2006
Posts: 625 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:57:25 AM
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I know of a priest outside of Boston who refused to perform a baptism on twin who were conceived using IVF.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:05:01 AM
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My children attend school in the system where this teacher was fired. The contract she signed clearly stated that everyone must uphold the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Contracts are given out annually and the teachers have a month to go through it before signing and turning it back into the system. Although I do not agree with the church's stand on IVF, the system does have the right to fire her for not upholding her contract. Ironically, the president of the system has admitted that it is quite likely that there are teachers in the system who use birth control or have had a vascetomy, and since the system doesn't know about it, there is nothing they can do about it. However, I would guess if it came to light those teachers would be fired as well.
Lisa
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:23:01 AM
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I thought that sterilization was OK for Catholics? Somebody could be fired for having a vasectomy too?
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:24:24 AM
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I thought that sterilization was OK for Catholics?
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Nope, not OK.
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:25:02 AM
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Thanks Mapchic.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:26:54 AM
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I may be wrong, but I thought that the only acceptable form of birth control is the rhythm method. I do know that Catholic hospitals will not do a tubal ligation.
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:26:55 AM
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Ok, so I'm confused. If no birth control is OK, why is natural family planning OK? Isn't it still standing in God's way of creating life? What is the difference between taking a pill and abstaining while ovulation? It's still self-will controlling fertility.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:27:25 AM
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I may be wrong, but I thought that the only acceptable form of birth control is the rhythm method. I do know that Catholic hospitals will not do a tubal ligation.
Lisa
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mtomseth
BucketHead
PeaNut 191190 - 2/14/2005
Posts: 953 Layouts: 0
Loc: Pacific Northwest
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:30:33 AM
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I Vote for her baby to enter Seminary School and become the Pope ......
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That will never happen... both of her babies are girls.
I believe the Catholic school has the right to enforce the employment contract which states employees will abide by church rules. This teacher needs to find a teaching position at a school that isn't opposed to IVF.
Because I believe in the right to make my own reproductive choices I would never go to work for an organization that disagrees with my choices.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:34:35 AM
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Tina, I do not have any answers for you because it confuses me as well.
Lisa
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:34:39 AM
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Ok, so I'm confused. If no birth control is OK, why is natural family planning OK? Isn't it still standing in God's way of creating life? What is the difference between taking a pill and abstaining while ovulation? It's still self-will controlling fertility.
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Here is the short answer... because when you are utilizing NFP every time you engage in sex you are open to the possibility of life. Without barriers of any kind between you and your spouse and God's will.
There is a lot more to it, and honestly someone who is married and practicing NFP can answer better than I. Because honestly, I haven't paid much attention to those teachings because as of now... they don't apply to me!
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Peas OnEarth
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 179732 - 12/4/2004
Posts: 5591 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:38:33 AM
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Can I ask a question here... Why does it piss you off?
If you are not Catholic why would it piss you off what the teachings of the Catholic Church are?
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It pisses me off because right now I am a week from finding out if I am pregnant and I am hormonal and stressed etc.. So are Catholics going to look at my family and say we are a sin or not conceived of love etc.. It upsets me that any other person would feel this way about helping loving couples conceive life.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:41:46 AM
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Why in the world would you care what Catholics think when you aren't even one of them? It's not like we are going to send an angry mob with torches and pitchforks to your door.
I certainly don't sit around all worried everytime I eat a ham sandwich I'm going to be judged by Jewish people or Muslims.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:45:10 AM
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So are Catholics going to look at my family and say we are a sin or not conceived of love etc.. It upsets me that any other person would feel this way about helping loving couples conceive life.
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Why should you care what other people think?
Anyway, I am not judging you or anyone else who chooses to have IVF. That's not my responsiblity.
I am just saying to for *me* it would be a sin (because I am working hard to faithfully follow the teachings of the Catholic Church).
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:46:32 AM
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As I said in an earlier post, I do not agree with the church's teachings on IVF. It should not matter whether assistance is needed or not to conceive a child, they are all God's children and should be loved. We should be more concerned about the parents who abuse their children, not on how a woman became pregnant.
Lisa
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:48:12 AM
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I think it's a little ironic that folks are so quick to judge priests who have sinned but yet are so quick to "not want to be judged by others for their sins..."
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Not sure I understand what you mean by this, but yes, call me judgmental. I cannot think of a more horrible sin/crime than to violate a child especially when you have taken a vow to uphold the teachings of the church and are in a position where you are a trusted member of the community.
I think the reason the pedophile Priest issue is being discussed is because the Church protected these Priests, versus protecting the child. So when you come down on IVF, it rings a little hollow.
But I'm not a Catholic. I don't dislike Catholism, just don't care for anyone that protects sexual predators. I understand pedophilia is not isolated to one religion. I just wish that the congregations would rise up against these horrible creatures versus making excuses and protecting them.
That being said, I do agree that you sign a contract, you abide by it.
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:48:55 AM
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This is cut and pasted from http://www.bygpub.com/natural/index.htm:
The idea behind natural family planning is very simple. A woman is fertile for only about 100 to 120 hours during a month. Let's call this time period the "window of fertility." By avoiding sexual intimacy during the window of fertility, pregnancy can be avoided. This method can also help achieve pregnancy by understanding the fertility cycle better and learning when the probability of concieving is highest. The question that various natural family planning methods are trying to answer is "How do I determine exactly when the window of fertility starts and ends?" If the window could be determined with 100% accuracy, then natural family planning would be a nearly perfect birth control method. However, the window can only be estimated (estimated though with high probability). To determine the window of fertility, these methods use such things as temperature, mucus, and cervical changes.
This is cut and pasted from the Couple to Couple League website:
First, we believe that God is the Author of nature; He is the one who put together in the marriage act what we call "making love" and "making babies." It is God who in His providence has allowed us to learn in the late 20th century about woman’s alternating fertility and infertility — and about Natural Family Planning — at the same time that other medical advances greatly increased the population survival rate. NFP allows couples to prudently regulate births without recourse to unnatural, immoral methods of birth control that interfere with the way God designed our fertility.
As astonishing as this statement may seem, throughout history natural methods have never been less effective than the unnatural, non-surgical methods. (Moral methods may not be as convenient, and they do require self-control, but that is a wonderful and rewarding virtue to acquire, as many NFP couples will attest.) In the 1930s the Ogino-Knaus Rhythm Method of NFP was as effective as the most effective "new" contraceptive barrier methods. In the 1960s, when the Pill launched the Sexual Revolution, the Sympto-Thermal Method of NFP (as taught by CCL today) was as effective as the Pill.
Religious and moral convictions guide anyone’s decisions about sexual behavior. We believe that when people are fully informed about the advantages of NFP they will see that this method best agrees with their convictions as well as their practical desires for happier marriages and healthier lives.
NFP does not mean "Not for Protestants." You don’t have to be Catholic to have strong convictions that it is wrong to use unnatural methods of birth control. "Such 'providentialists' should at least learn the rules for ecological breastfeeding, God's own way of spacing babies." For a better understanding of the moral issue of birth control and to find out the true position of the Catholic Church on this matter, please see Church Teachings on NFP. and especially the full text of Pope Paul VI's encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (On Human Life).
The Couple to Couple League (CCL) is an international, interfaith, non-profit organization dedicated to teaching Natural Family Planning (NFP) to married and engaged couples. It is essentially a volunteer organization because services are provided by professionally-trained volunteers who are supported by a relatively small staff at the international headquarters in Cincinnati, Ohio. Local Chapters of the organization consist mainly of certified Teaching Couples and Promoters, along with other supportive members.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:51:58 AM
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But the congregations are rising up against them. My pastor was arrested for child porn and he was reported by a parishoner. The people protested so loudly to the archdioceses that there have been an enormous amount of change in who is able to have contact with children. I personally had to go through 2 background checks and attend an all-day seminar on sexual predators.
Of course, all of this has nothing to do with the actual issue - a teacher signing a contract and then complaining about being fired when she fails to live up to the terms.
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tupperwarepam
PeaFixture
PeaNut 170575 - 10/1/2004
Posts: 3051 Layouts: 0
Loc: niagara region ontario
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:54:53 AM
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I agree that she should have been fired for breaking her contract.
My moral beliefs do not jive with the Catholic Church.
JMHO!!
I think that the Teacher that was fired deserved to be fired for the sole reason she broke her signed contract.
What I however disagree with is her being fired.
I know clear as MUD!!
Her Priest failed her.
Does this make sense??? I believe that if you can not follow all of the teaching of your religion then it is you Priest, Minster, Rabbi that fails you.
I would however be interested to know if she regularly attends Mass.
So, because she says she did not know the rule about IVF she lost her job.
So, she either is a *bad* Catholic or a misinformed Catholic.
Either way she broke the contract.
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:07:35 PM
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But the congregations are rising up against them. My pastor was arrested for child porn and he was reported by a parishoner. The people protested so loudly to the archdioceses that there have been an enormous amount of change in who is able to have contact with children. I personally had to go through 2 background checks and attend an all-day seminar on sexual predators.
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That's good to hear. I think it's happening more and more these days, although we just had a Priest in this area accused of sexual assault on 2 girls and someone who is in the coongregation interviewed said it was impossible. Granted, that's anectdotal evidence, so disregard.
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Of course, all of this has nothing to do with the actual issue - a teacher signing a contract and then complaining about being fired when she fails to live up to the terms.
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True dat.
I was just commenting that it's interesting what gets quickly dismissed and expelled and what doesn't. Priests are often given second chances when they break vows, often with disatrous consequences.
In fact, in the latest local case (see link), the Diocese knew of allegations of a Priest inappropriate relationship with a woman and he remained at the Church only to have later be alleged (credible allegations) of sexual misconduct with minors.
Granted, this is not related to the teacher or relevant to her situation. I'm just trying to explain my distaste.
Enough said. I'll shut-up even though I promised that 2 times already. This time I mean it...
Article
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:18:02 PM
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aka Sasha,
My point being was that I got called down for being 'judgemental' of folks who claimed to practice Catholicism but still contracept are pro-choice, pro-death penalty, etc...these same people that have no problem judging the sins of these priests. I'm not saying what they did wasn't wrong...it was horrific. The leadership of the church should be held accountable for how they handled the situation or their lack thereof.
But as I was told, it's not my place to judge...I would think that standard would be applied across the board...
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:18:56 PM
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Thanks for posting that info, Michelle. I still don't get it. The rationale seems to be that NFP is OK because it's "natural." But Clomid is "unnatural" and it's OK? It's all still stepping in the way of God's will, isn't it?
And thanks to Mapchic for your explanation. It seem that intent is also important. Catholics are supposed to leave themselves open to the possibility of life with each sexual encounter. But they're not really doing that if they abstain when life is most likely to be conceived. Their intent in their intimate life is still to prevent life. I don't see how they can be open to the possibility of life when it's not really possible to conceive. It seems like rationalization to me.
If God is the author of life, doesn't He decide when conception will occur? If all life is sacred, why try to stop potential life? Why support attempts to stand in God's way? Isn't God more powerful than any pill or calendar?
Forgive me if I seem confrontational. I'm not trying to be. I just honestly can't wrap my brain around it. I was married in a Catholic ceremony, so I went through Pre-Cana, complete with the NFP video and discussion. I had the same questions then, which my priest could not answer. He said that NFP was the recommendation of the church, but to pray on how God wanted us to handle our fertility. I guess the fact that I was already 5 months pregnant at the wedding kind of showed that we were open to babies, huh?
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Nightowl scrapper
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 103889 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 2509 Layouts: 0
Loc: California
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:22:46 PM
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I think the comparison between the pharmacist being fired for not dispensing morning after pills and the teacher being fired is a very appropriate one. Both involved employees whose personal moral values conflicted with their employer's policy. The same people slamming the church for firing the employee would be slamming the pharmacist for refusing to dispense the medication. And there is inconsistency because the 2 situations ARE analogous. The consistency is that people side with the party they personally agree with or feel empathy for, not what is an absolute principle.
This is the very reason the Vatican issues instructions on dealing with current day issues. People make decisions based on emotion. Most of you horrified by the Church teaching on this subject either used IVF, had family/friends who used IVF, or would have used IVF if you had to. Your opinion on this matter is colored by emotion, which is precisely what human beings do.
Religious truth is not driven by emotion, it is driven by precedent, and/or by what is believed to be God-inspired teaching. It does not change with technology or opinion polls. What the Vatican did was to apply centuries old teachings regarding marital relations and the value of life, teachings about the reason God gives a child to a couple (as a "gift" not a "right" ) . They applied these traditional teachings as best they could to a new technology that could not have been directly addressed in the Bible because it did not exist. I'm sure they knew that the teachings would not be popular, but I highly doubt they sat around thinking how they could cause further heartache to already hurting couples.
The fact is that reproductive technology does have implications beyond what IVF uses it for, and it is those implications of manipulating reproduction, believed to be the special responsibility of God, that were undoubtedly of concern to the men writing the catechism. They felt a line needed to be drawn, and this is how they chose to do it.
To those who see IVF as "Biblical" because it's just a modern day equivalent of what patriarchs such as Abraham and Jacob did in having multiple women bearing them children, look again at the results of those actions. Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham so he could have a son. Ishmael was not the physical child of a married couple, Sarah and Abraham, (though he may have been legally there in the legal standard of that day) he was the child of Abraham and Hagar; it's more analogous to a surrogacy contract gone terribly wrong (which I'm reasonably sure is also against Catholic teaching). Hagar took care of Ishmael, she didn't turn him over to Sarah. And the consequences of Abraham trying to manipulate God's will in this way still plague mankind. Yet Abraham's reasoning was that he just wanted a son, and doing this was perfectly legal in his day, so how could that be a bad thing?
I would be very surprised if the Abraham/Hagar situation was not just one of the Biblical references considered in determining God's plan for conceiving children within a marriage. And just because men and women in the Bible did things, you cannot assume that they were okay with God. Yes, God uses sinful people to carry out his will, but that doesn't mean life wouldn't have been even better if they hadn't done those sins. Actions have consequences, some we don't fully understand.
Now, if you've read this far and decide I am cold-bloodedly against IVF, you would be very mistaken. I do, however, see why church leaders believed it appropriate to draw a line regarding this technology. I do see how it has been misused.
Those caught up in the very real, aching desire for a child find it difficult to accept an opinion that appears to close the door to them achieving a successful pregnancy. If you're not Catholic, don't get so worked up about it and seize the opportunity to slam the church for previous wrong actions; it is sufficient to understand they have a doctrine you don't agree with. It would be well to look carefully at the specific reasoning spelled out in Jen's posts and think about it seriously, whether you agree or not. Correct, factual information is of value to our thought process.
If you are Catholic and don't agree, you must reconcile that with your own conscience. I think the fact that they provided an "out" of having intercourse just before the medical procedure is interesting, and shows a serious attempt at compassion to those affected by this.
And for the record, I am not Catholic and never have been.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5922 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:32:12 PM
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Are you saying that your personal 'reproductive rights' trump other peoples religious rights?
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Um. No.
I'm saying that I wouldn't work somewhere that tried to influence my reproductive rights.
That's why I said, "I totally agree" with the statement: "I would not work somewhere where your reproductive rights are compromised."
Sorry if that somehow wasn't clear.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5922 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:35:39 PM
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I know of a priest outside of Boston who refused to perform a baptism on twin who were conceived using IVF.
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This makes me really sad. I also found it really sad when I heard about that story where a Catholic family wanted to know if it was possible for their child with a wheat allergy to receive some other type of communion wafer and they were told no.
1:15 PM
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PeaPoster
*rosebud*
PeaNut
PeaNut 228820 - 10/24/2005
Posts: 385 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:39:25 PM
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It is confusing, Tina.
In the end, for me, all of it was more than I could reconcile so I am no longer a practicing Catholic.
I do give the Catholic Church major points for consistency. For me, it was too much rigidity and started not to make sense logically. Even though I am no longer Catholic (in one sense, it is hard to completely shrug off your Catholic identity because so much is deeply entrenched in your psche), I do get angry about some of the rigidity. This rule-following rigidity played a big part in the woman I am today - the good and the bad! Of course, it still effects me - it made me who I am!
I think your comments about intent are very important, and it does get fuzzy. The whole "open to the possibility of life" argument is also the reason the church is against oral sex even between a married couple and, uhm, self-gratification. Now if they started to fire all eachers who engage in either of those things - Whoaaaaa, Nelly!
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huskerscrapper
Looser Liberal Lair
PeaNut 49249 - 9/16/2002
Posts: 29129 Layouts: 123
Loc: Husker Nation
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:40:21 PM
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She broke a contract. The school had a right to fire her.
I disagree with many of the Catholic teachings, but they have the right to make their rules and ask their members to follow them.
Unless it somehow affects society or people outside the Catholic faith, I don't fret over Catholic teachings.
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:47:18 PM
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My point being was that I got called down for being 'judgemental' of folks who claimed to practice Catholicism but still contracept are pro-choice, pro-death penalty, etc...these same people that have no problem judging the sins of these priests.
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Ah ha. I see!
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:49:30 PM
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I also found it really sad when I heard about that story where a Catholic family wanted to know if it was possible for their child with a wheat allergy to receive some other type of communion wafer and they were told no.
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My mom's church offers a gluten free host. During my grandmother's funeral, it caused a much needed moment of levity. Our whole family was raised in the church, so we can repeat the communion part by rote. So for the priest to suddenly throw in, "We offer a gluten-free host for those requiring it" . . . well, we all started to giggle a bit at how out of place it sounded in the holy mass.
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:50:39 PM
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Here's something from the Second Vatican Council. Basically, what it's saying is this, PLEASE-if I'm wrong, PLEASE correct me, truly...but the Church doesn't want married couple procreating just because they are physically capable of doing so. The Church expects and demands when you bring give life to a child, you take care of it responsibly and treat the child like the gift from God that it is. Raising them to be happy, productive 'warriors for the faith.' The church specifically states that family size is a private decision made by the couple and God alone. What the Church expects is that you go about your family size in a natural way. If this particular month, it is not feasible financially, emotionally, etc for you to conceive, then the Church expects you to obstain from the conjugal act. By obstaining, you are respecting your spouse's fertility...but not keeping God out of the equation. The church teaches that every conjugal act between married couples be open to new life. It is not immoral to avoid pregnancy by obstaing.
Gaudium et Spes (Second Vatican Council)
50.2 Parents should regard as their proper mission the task of transmitting human life and educating those to whom it has been transmitted. They should realize that they are thereby cooperators with the love of God the Creator, and are, so to speak, the interpreters of that love. Thus they will fulfill their task with human and Christian responsibility, and, with docile reverence toward God, will make decisions by common counsel and effort. Let them thoughtfully take into account both their own welfare and that of their children, those already born and those which the future may bring. For this accounting they need to reckon with both the material and the spiritual conditions of the times as well as of their state in life. Finally, they should consult the interests of the family group, of temporal society, and of the Church herself. The parents themselves and no one else should ultimately make this judgment in the sight of God. But in their manner of acting, spouses should be aware that they cannot proceed arbitrarily, but must always be governed according to a conscience dutifully conformed to the divine law itself, and should be submissive toward the Church's teaching office, which authentically interprets that law in the light of the Gospel. That divine law reveals and protects the integral meaning of conjugal love, and impels it toward a truly human fulfillment. Thus, trusting in divine Providence and refining the spirit of sacrifice,(12) married Christians glorify the Creator and strive toward fulfillment in Christ when with a generous human and Christian sense of responsibility they acquit themselves of the duty to procreate. Among the couples who fulfill their God-given task in this way, those merit special mention who with a gallant heart and with wise and common deliberation, undertake to bring up suitably even a relatively large family.(13)
Marriage to be sure is not instituted solely for procreation; rather, its very nature as an unbreakable compact between persons, and the welfare of the children, both demand that the mutual love of the spouses be embodied in a rightly ordered manner, that it grow and ripen. Therefore, marriage persists as a whole manner and communion of life, and maintains its value and indissolubility, even when despite the often intense desire of the couple, offspring are lacking.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:51:07 PM
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I know of a priest outside of Boston who refused to perform a baptism on twin who were conceived using IVF.
This makes me really sad. I also found it really sad when I heard about that story where a Catholic family wanted to know if it was possible for their child with a wheat allergy to receive some other type of communion wafer and they were told no.
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If a priest ever denied baptism to a child it is pretty easy to just go to their Bishop, get the child baptized and have the priest dealt with for thinking he has any right to deny the sacraments.
On the issue of wheat allergy and the Eucharist... the child is still welcome to partake in Communion by not taking the host, and instead taking the wine. No biggie. The church teaches that Christ is present completely in both species of Communion so you can take one or the other.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5922 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:51:31 PM
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Tina, that's really nice. I felt awful for the family I read about because they wanted to take part in the communion together and they weren't allowed to do so.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:55:28 PM
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The whole "open to the possibility of life" argument is also the reason the church is against oral sex even between a married couple
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Ok, so I have to respond to this one with my favorite fun fact about Catholic teachings on sex...
The Catholic Church actually teaches that it is A-Ok for a woman to recieve oral (within the bounds of married sex, in order to reach fulfillment) - and a man can too... but not to fulfillment.
And people say the Church doesn't like women!
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MNBonnie
The Daily Pea with Jon Stewart
PeaNut 64193 - 1/22/2003
Posts: 7013 Layouts: 16
Loc: Peaing in my Crocs
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:57:49 PM
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And people say the Church doesn't like women!
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That totally made me LOL! Thanks for clarifying Mapchic.
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:59:29 PM
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Mapchic...
ROFLMFO!! Gotta love that thing called the Catholic Church!!
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 1:05:12 PM
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Catholics are supposed to leave themselves open to the possibility of life with each sexual encounter. But they're not really doing that if they abstain when life is most likely to be conceived.
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Ok, you actually have the answer here already.
In every sexual encounter Catholics are supposed to be open to the possibility of life. If they abstain... then no sexual encounter is occuring.
It's a whole delicate balance between human free will (to abstain) and God's will (to create life).
I am really not the right person to explain this, because as I said above... I'm not living it. All I can do is try and explain why the church teaches what it does on these issues. However it is a really complicated, complex topic.
Maybe it will help you if you think of the fact that in the Catholic church married sex is a continuation of a sacrament. It is literally a holy act (a darn fun one at that!) and it is regulated accordingly.
If you really want to understand why NFP is OK and artificial BC is not, I would suggest you check out this article. God, Sex and Babies It is a pretty good explanation (much easier to read that Humanae Vitae!)
Here is the conclusion from that article...
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In contrast to the world’s "disincarnate" view of love, the Church teaches that matter matters. What we do with our bodies expresses our deepest held convictions about ourselves, God, the meaning of love, and the ordering of the universe. When the Church’s sacramental view of the body is taken seriously, we understand that sexual union is not only a biological process, but a profound theological process: "This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the Church" (Eph. 5:32).
The Church’s well-balanced teaching on responsible parenthood is a divine gift given to protect the supreme value of this sign. Imbalances on both extremes must be avoided if we are to ensure fidelity to the sign of marital love and an ever-clearer proclamation of the divine mystery in the world.
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*rosebud*
PeaNut
PeaNut 228820 - 10/24/2005
Posts: 385 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 1:05:28 PM
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The Catholic Church actually teaches that it is A-Ok for a woman to recieve oral (within the bounds of married sex, in order to reach fulfillment) - and a man can too... but not to fulfillment.
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Okay, I did know that!! I did mean specifically men reaching to fulfillment because of the life argument.
Really, my only issue with this particular case is my knowledge that things like this are usually unfairly enforced.
If there are no fruits of your sin, your career and reputation are not in jeopardy and relatively few Catholics would care about those "sins" anyway (IVF, birth control, what two married people do in their own bedroom!).
If there are fruits of those sin, there's some sort of scandal. Happened in high school all the time - the girls who were pregnant and wanted to keep their babies were shipped off to a different all-girls school, not allowed to "walk" for graduation, etc. Never heard of anything happening to the girls' boyfriends. My opinion is probably colored by all of that, I'm sure.
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1:15 PM
If you click on the "anonymous" at the beginning of a comment, it will hide their post, then you don't have to scroll through it.
Get a life, by the way, you paster.
mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:01:41 AM
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ALL of the "teachings" of the Catholic Church? Really? All? And what constitutes "teaching" anyway? Are teachers being routinely fired for using birth control, having premarital sex, missing mass on Holy Days of obligation, receiving Eucharist with mortal sin on your soul without first receiving reconciliation...where does it end?
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Yes, really all. What constitutes a teaching of the Church is conveniently listed in the Catechism.
Are teachers being fired for violating different rules? Yes. There was the case of the male teacher in MA fired because he got his girlfriend pregnant (sex outside of marriage), birth control is a tricky one... nobody would know unless you told them. However, if you do publicise that then yes, you are liable to get fired.
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I agree. I would not work somewhere where your reproductive rights are compromised. It's none of their business how her child was conceived.
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This is an interesting quote.
Are you saying that your personal 'reproductive rights' trump other peoples religious rights?
I actually think that his has a great deal in common with the stories of pharmacists who are being fired for not dispensing the morning after pill.
In both cases the private employer has the right to expect their employees will follow certain norms of conduct... and when the employees fails to do that... they are liable to get fired.
I wonder how many people who are outraged that this teacher is getting fired also believed that pharmacists who refuse to dispense BC and the Morning After pill should be fired?
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Anewday
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 246606 - 1/31/2006
Posts: 2473 Layouts: 13
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:14:25 AM
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I wonder how many people who are outraged that this teacher is getting fired also believed that pharmacists who refuse to dispense BC and the Morning After pill should be fired?
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I believe the employer in both instances has the right to fire the employee.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:21:21 AM
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Let me be clear - I totally believe that private employers have the right to fire employees for not living up to the terms of their contracts... Both if they are teachers as in this case, or if they are pharmicists in the other.
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MNBonnie
The Daily Pea with Jon Stewart
PeaNut 64193 - 1/22/2003
Posts: 7013 Layouts: 16
Loc: Peaing in my Crocs
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:21:51 AM
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I feel the same as Lauren. I think the Catholic school should be allowed to fire the teacher and the pharmacy has the right to fire the pharmacist if they refuse to fill perscriptions. But I also feel a Catholic hospital has every right in the world to not perform abortions, stock morning after pills or any kind of birth control pill.
Unless abuse or violence is being done within a church, the government should stay the hell out of churches' business, and the churches should do the same of the government, IMO.
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KahluaKoala
PeaAddict
PeaNut 187179 - 1/23/2005
Posts: 1582 Layouts: 0
Loc: Miami Florida
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:25:11 AM
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I Vote for her baby to enter Seminary School and become the Pope ......
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*rosebud*
PeaNut
PeaNut 228820 - 10/24/2005
Posts: 385 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:25:33 AM
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re teachers being fired for violating different rules? Yes. There was the case of the male teacher in MA fired because he got his girlfriend pregnant (sex outside of marriage), birth control is a tricky one... nobody would know unless you told them. However, if you do publicise that then yes, you are liable to get fired.
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I agree that you are liable to get fired. However, look at the situation you described above. If this guy had only broken two rules rather than one (premarital sex and birth control or premarital sex and abortion), he could have kept his job.
That's why I think the enforcement gets so tricky and can border on the absurd. Break every last one quietly and you are golden. Break one publicly - even one that many Catholics routinely break and feel no moral dilemma in breaking; ones that some priests even tell parishioners to follow their own consciouses about - and you lose your job. And then you are jobless and the child suffers - the blameless child.
Yes, they absolutely have the right - but I really do think there should be some pragmatism and compassion in the application of the rules.
Full disclaimer: I was raised Catholic and educated in Catholic Schools for 17 years (kindergarten through college). I was never a particularly "good Catholic" and completely left the religion about 5 years ago. But I can't deny that the upbringing and teachings still profoundly effect me.
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9grtkds
PeaNut
PeaNut 249528 - 2/18/2006
Posts: 367 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:31:54 AM
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I have always been told that a portion of the Catholic Church's rules on IVF are.....the number of embryos created. I have a number of friends who are now struggling with what to do with their extra embryos. They are adamently opposed to destroying them, they do not feel that they want to enlarge their families and embryo adoption seems too hard.
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Peas OnEarth
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 179732 - 12/4/2004
Posts: 5591 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:33:04 AM
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Wow, that's taking things pretty far there! Sexual relations are a gift of marriage, to be shared with one's spouse, not with anyone outside the marriage, including children. God does not condone molesting children.
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I was speaking the scandal with priests. I am sorry but the part I originally quoted where it said that fertility treatments are a mortal sin really pissed me off. Again, I am not Catholic and they can feel anyway they want. It is just ironic to me what they consider a mortal sin. With all the people creating life and throwing it away, not treating their children well, divorce etc.. I just find it odd that a husband and wife who love eachother trying to have a child is a mortal sin. I am not bashing every single Catholic. Some of my family are Catholics. I do think whoever wrote that docterine on infertility is mean and crazy.
I would respect the Catholic church more if the Priests who were accoused of molestation had been prosecuted as opposed to moved to other parishes. I also have a problem with any church or church leader who knows that someone is being accused of molestation and legal action is not taken. All organized religion is pretty hypocritical in my view.
As for the teacher, the school she works at has a right to fire her.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:55:54 AM
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the part I originally quoted where it said that fertility treatments are a mortal sin really pissed me off. Again, I am not Catholic and they can feel anyway they want. It is just ironic to me what they consider a mortal sin. With all the people creating life and throwing it away, not treating their children well, divorce etc..
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Can I ask a question here... Why does it piss you off?
If you are not Catholic why would it piss you off what the teachings of the Catholic Church are?
I mean they don't apply to you, you have no obligation to follow them, there is no reason they should anger you in any way because they don't imparct your life in any way.
Anyway, all those other societal problems you listed are also considered sins in the eyes of the church. So you can't blame them for not speaking out against them and instead speaking out against IVF.
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I am not bashing every single Catholic.
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No, just those who follow the teachings of the Church.
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Peas de Resistance
BucketHead
PeaNut 251396 - 3/2/2006
Posts: 625 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:57:25 AM
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I know of a priest outside of Boston who refused to perform a baptism on twin who were conceived using IVF.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:05:01 AM
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My children attend school in the system where this teacher was fired. The contract she signed clearly stated that everyone must uphold the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Contracts are given out annually and the teachers have a month to go through it before signing and turning it back into the system. Although I do not agree with the church's stand on IVF, the system does have the right to fire her for not upholding her contract. Ironically, the president of the system has admitted that it is quite likely that there are teachers in the system who use birth control or have had a vascetomy, and since the system doesn't know about it, there is nothing they can do about it. However, I would guess if it came to light those teachers would be fired as well.
Lisa
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:23:01 AM
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I thought that sterilization was OK for Catholics? Somebody could be fired for having a vasectomy too?
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:24:24 AM
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I thought that sterilization was OK for Catholics?
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Nope, not OK.
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:25:02 AM
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Thanks Mapchic.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:26:54 AM
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I may be wrong, but I thought that the only acceptable form of birth control is the rhythm method. I do know that Catholic hospitals will not do a tubal ligation.
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:26:55 AM
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Ok, so I'm confused. If no birth control is OK, why is natural family planning OK? Isn't it still standing in God's way of creating life? What is the difference between taking a pill and abstaining while ovulation? It's still self-will controlling fertility.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:27:25 AM
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I may be wrong, but I thought that the only acceptable form of birth control is the rhythm method. I do know that Catholic hospitals will not do a tubal ligation.
Lisa
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mtomseth
BucketHead
PeaNut 191190 - 2/14/2005
Posts: 953 Layouts: 0
Loc: Pacific Northwest
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:30:33 AM
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I Vote for her baby to enter Seminary School and become the Pope ......
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That will never happen... both of her babies are girls.
I believe the Catholic school has the right to enforce the employment contract which states employees will abide by church rules. This teacher needs to find a teaching position at a school that isn't opposed to IVF.
Because I believe in the right to make my own reproductive choices I would never go to work for an organization that disagrees with my choices.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:34:35 AM
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Tina, I do not have any answers for you because it confuses me as well.
Lisa
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:34:39 AM
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Ok, so I'm confused. If no birth control is OK, why is natural family planning OK? Isn't it still standing in God's way of creating life? What is the difference between taking a pill and abstaining while ovulation? It's still self-will controlling fertility.
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Here is the short answer... because when you are utilizing NFP every time you engage in sex you are open to the possibility of life. Without barriers of any kind between you and your spouse and God's will.
There is a lot more to it, and honestly someone who is married and practicing NFP can answer better than I. Because honestly, I haven't paid much attention to those teachings because as of now... they don't apply to me!
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Peas OnEarth
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 179732 - 12/4/2004
Posts: 5591 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:38:33 AM
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Can I ask a question here... Why does it piss you off?
If you are not Catholic why would it piss you off what the teachings of the Catholic Church are?
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It pisses me off because right now I am a week from finding out if I am pregnant and I am hormonal and stressed etc.. So are Catholics going to look at my family and say we are a sin or not conceived of love etc.. It upsets me that any other person would feel this way about helping loving couples conceive life.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:41:46 AM
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Why in the world would you care what Catholics think when you aren't even one of them? It's not like we are going to send an angry mob with torches and pitchforks to your door.
I certainly don't sit around all worried everytime I eat a ham sandwich I'm going to be judged by Jewish people or Muslims.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:45:10 AM
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So are Catholics going to look at my family and say we are a sin or not conceived of love etc.. It upsets me that any other person would feel this way about helping loving couples conceive life.
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Why should you care what other people think?
Anyway, I am not judging you or anyone else who chooses to have IVF. That's not my responsiblity.
I am just saying to for *me* it would be a sin (because I am working hard to faithfully follow the teachings of the Catholic Church).
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:46:32 AM
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As I said in an earlier post, I do not agree with the church's teachings on IVF. It should not matter whether assistance is needed or not to conceive a child, they are all God's children and should be loved. We should be more concerned about the parents who abuse their children, not on how a woman became pregnant.
Lisa
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:48:12 AM
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I think it's a little ironic that folks are so quick to judge priests who have sinned but yet are so quick to "not want to be judged by others for their sins..."
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Not sure I understand what you mean by this, but yes, call me judgmental. I cannot think of a more horrible sin/crime than to violate a child especially when you have taken a vow to uphold the teachings of the church and are in a position where you are a trusted member of the community.
I think the reason the pedophile Priest issue is being discussed is because the Church protected these Priests, versus protecting the child. So when you come down on IVF, it rings a little hollow.
But I'm not a Catholic. I don't dislike Catholism, just don't care for anyone that protects sexual predators. I understand pedophilia is not isolated to one religion. I just wish that the congregations would rise up against these horrible creatures versus making excuses and protecting them.
That being said, I do agree that you sign a contract, you abide by it.
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:48:55 AM
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This is cut and pasted from http://www.bygpub.com/natural/index.htm:
The idea behind natural family planning is very simple. A woman is fertile for only about 100 to 120 hours during a month. Let's call this time period the "window of fertility." By avoiding sexual intimacy during the window of fertility, pregnancy can be avoided. This method can also help achieve pregnancy by understanding the fertility cycle better and learning when the probability of concieving is highest. The question that various natural family planning methods are trying to answer is "How do I determine exactly when the window of fertility starts and ends?" If the window could be determined with 100% accuracy, then natural family planning would be a nearly perfect birth control method. However, the window can only be estimated (estimated though with high probability). To determine the window of fertility, these methods use such things as temperature, mucus, and cervical changes.
This is cut and pasted from the Couple to Couple League website:
First, we believe that God is the Author of nature; He is the one who put together in the marriage act what we call "making love" and "making babies." It is God who in His providence has allowed us to learn in the late 20th century about woman’s alternating fertility and infertility — and about Natural Family Planning — at the same time that other medical advances greatly increased the population survival rate. NFP allows couples to prudently regulate births without recourse to unnatural, immoral methods of birth control that interfere with the way God designed our fertility.
As astonishing as this statement may seem, throughout history natural methods have never been less effective than the unnatural, non-surgical methods. (Moral methods may not be as convenient, and they do require self-control, but that is a wonderful and rewarding virtue to acquire, as many NFP couples will attest.) In the 1930s the Ogino-Knaus Rhythm Method of NFP was as effective as the most effective "new" contraceptive barrier methods. In the 1960s, when the Pill launched the Sexual Revolution, the Sympto-Thermal Method of NFP (as taught by CCL today) was as effective as the Pill.
Religious and moral convictions guide anyone’s decisions about sexual behavior. We believe that when people are fully informed about the advantages of NFP they will see that this method best agrees with their convictions as well as their practical desires for happier marriages and healthier lives.
NFP does not mean "Not for Protestants." You don’t have to be Catholic to have strong convictions that it is wrong to use unnatural methods of birth control. "Such 'providentialists' should at least learn the rules for ecological breastfeeding, God's own way of spacing babies." For a better understanding of the moral issue of birth control and to find out the true position of the Catholic Church on this matter, please see Church Teachings on NFP. and especially the full text of Pope Paul VI's encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (On Human Life).
The Couple to Couple League (CCL) is an international, interfaith, non-profit organization dedicated to teaching Natural Family Planning (NFP) to married and engaged couples. It is essentially a volunteer organization because services are provided by professionally-trained volunteers who are supported by a relatively small staff at the international headquarters in Cincinnati, Ohio. Local Chapters of the organization consist mainly of certified Teaching Couples and Promoters, along with other supportive members.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:51:58 AM
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But the congregations are rising up against them. My pastor was arrested for child porn and he was reported by a parishoner. The people protested so loudly to the archdioceses that there have been an enormous amount of change in who is able to have contact with children. I personally had to go through 2 background checks and attend an all-day seminar on sexual predators.
Of course, all of this has nothing to do with the actual issue - a teacher signing a contract and then complaining about being fired when she fails to live up to the terms.
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tupperwarepam
PeaFixture
PeaNut 170575 - 10/1/2004
Posts: 3051 Layouts: 0
Loc: niagara region ontario
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:54:53 AM
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I agree that she should have been fired for breaking her contract.
My moral beliefs do not jive with the Catholic Church.
JMHO!!
I think that the Teacher that was fired deserved to be fired for the sole reason she broke her signed contract.
What I however disagree with is her being fired.
I know clear as MUD!!
Her Priest failed her.
Does this make sense??? I believe that if you can not follow all of the teaching of your religion then it is you Priest, Minster, Rabbi that fails you.
I would however be interested to know if she regularly attends Mass.
So, because she says she did not know the rule about IVF she lost her job.
So, she either is a *bad* Catholic or a misinformed Catholic.
Either way she broke the contract.
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:07:35 PM
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But the congregations are rising up against them. My pastor was arrested for child porn and he was reported by a parishoner. The people protested so loudly to the archdioceses that there have been an enormous amount of change in who is able to have contact with children. I personally had to go through 2 background checks and attend an all-day seminar on sexual predators.
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That's good to hear. I think it's happening more and more these days, although we just had a Priest in this area accused of sexual assault on 2 girls and someone who is in the coongregation interviewed said it was impossible. Granted, that's anectdotal evidence, so disregard.
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Of course, all of this has nothing to do with the actual issue - a teacher signing a contract and then complaining about being fired when she fails to live up to the terms.
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True dat.
I was just commenting that it's interesting what gets quickly dismissed and expelled and what doesn't. Priests are often given second chances when they break vows, often with disatrous consequences.
In fact, in the latest local case (see link), the Diocese knew of allegations of a Priest inappropriate relationship with a woman and he remained at the Church only to have later be alleged (credible allegations) of sexual misconduct with minors.
Granted, this is not related to the teacher or relevant to her situation. I'm just trying to explain my distaste.
Enough said. I'll shut-up even though I promised that 2 times already. This time I mean it...
Article
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:18:02 PM
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aka Sasha,
My point being was that I got called down for being 'judgemental' of folks who claimed to practice Catholicism but still contracept are pro-choice, pro-death penalty, etc...these same people that have no problem judging the sins of these priests. I'm not saying what they did wasn't wrong...it was horrific. The leadership of the church should be held accountable for how they handled the situation or their lack thereof.
But as I was told, it's not my place to judge...I would think that standard would be applied across the board...
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:18:56 PM
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Thanks for posting that info, Michelle. I still don't get it. The rationale seems to be that NFP is OK because it's "natural." But Clomid is "unnatural" and it's OK? It's all still stepping in the way of God's will, isn't it?
And thanks to Mapchic for your explanation. It seem that intent is also important. Catholics are supposed to leave themselves open to the possibility of life with each sexual encounter. But they're not really doing that if they abstain when life is most likely to be conceived. Their intent in their intimate life is still to prevent life. I don't see how they can be open to the possibility of life when it's not really possible to conceive. It seems like rationalization to me.
If God is the author of life, doesn't He decide when conception will occur? If all life is sacred, why try to stop potential life? Why support attempts to stand in God's way? Isn't God more powerful than any pill or calendar?
Forgive me if I seem confrontational. I'm not trying to be. I just honestly can't wrap my brain around it. I was married in a Catholic ceremony, so I went through Pre-Cana, complete with the NFP video and discussion. I had the same questions then, which my priest could not answer. He said that NFP was the recommendation of the church, but to pray on how God wanted us to handle our fertility. I guess the fact that I was already 5 months pregnant at the wedding kind of showed that we were open to babies, huh?
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Nightowl scrapper
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 103889 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 2509 Layouts: 0
Loc: California
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:22:46 PM
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I think the comparison between the pharmacist being fired for not dispensing morning after pills and the teacher being fired is a very appropriate one. Both involved employees whose personal moral values conflicted with their employer's policy. The same people slamming the church for firing the employee would be slamming the pharmacist for refusing to dispense the medication. And there is inconsistency because the 2 situations ARE analogous. The consistency is that people side with the party they personally agree with or feel empathy for, not what is an absolute principle.
This is the very reason the Vatican issues instructions on dealing with current day issues. People make decisions based on emotion. Most of you horrified by the Church teaching on this subject either used IVF, had family/friends who used IVF, or would have used IVF if you had to. Your opinion on this matter is colored by emotion, which is precisely what human beings do.
Religious truth is not driven by emotion, it is driven by precedent, and/or by what is believed to be God-inspired teaching. It does not change with technology or opinion polls. What the Vatican did was to apply centuries old teachings regarding marital relations and the value of life, teachings about the reason God gives a child to a couple (as a "gift" not a "right" ) . They applied these traditional teachings as best they could to a new technology that could not have been directly addressed in the Bible because it did not exist. I'm sure they knew that the teachings would not be popular, but I highly doubt they sat around thinking how they could cause further heartache to already hurting couples.
The fact is that reproductive technology does have implications beyond what IVF uses it for, and it is those implications of manipulating reproduction, believed to be the special responsibility of God, that were undoubtedly of concern to the men writing the catechism. They felt a line needed to be drawn, and this is how they chose to do it.
To those who see IVF as "Biblical" because it's just a modern day equivalent of what patriarchs such as Abraham and Jacob did in having multiple women bearing them children, look again at the results of those actions. Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham so he could have a son. Ishmael was not the physical child of a married couple, Sarah and Abraham, (though he may have been legally there in the legal standard of that day) he was the child of Abraham and Hagar; it's more analogous to a surrogacy contract gone terribly wrong (which I'm reasonably sure is also against Catholic teaching). Hagar took care of Ishmael, she didn't turn him over to Sarah. And the consequences of Abraham trying to manipulate God's will in this way still plague mankind. Yet Abraham's reasoning was that he just wanted a son, and doing this was perfectly legal in his day, so how could that be a bad thing?
I would be very surprised if the Abraham/Hagar situation was not just one of the Biblical references considered in determining God's plan for conceiving children within a marriage. And just because men and women in the Bible did things, you cannot assume that they were okay with God. Yes, God uses sinful people to carry out his will, but that doesn't mean life wouldn't have been even better if they hadn't done those sins. Actions have consequences, some we don't fully understand.
Now, if you've read this far and decide I am cold-bloodedly against IVF, you would be very mistaken. I do, however, see why church leaders believed it appropriate to draw a line regarding this technology. I do see how it has been misused.
Those caught up in the very real, aching desire for a child find it difficult to accept an opinion that appears to close the door to them achieving a successful pregnancy. If you're not Catholic, don't get so worked up about it and seize the opportunity to slam the church for previous wrong actions; it is sufficient to understand they have a doctrine you don't agree with. It would be well to look carefully at the specific reasoning spelled out in Jen's posts and think about it seriously, whether you agree or not. Correct, factual information is of value to our thought process.
If you are Catholic and don't agree, you must reconcile that with your own conscience. I think the fact that they provided an "out" of having intercourse just before the medical procedure is interesting, and shows a serious attempt at compassion to those affected by this.
And for the record, I am not Catholic and never have been.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5922 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:32:12 PM
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Are you saying that your personal 'reproductive rights' trump other peoples religious rights?
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Um. No.
I'm saying that I wouldn't work somewhere that tried to influence my reproductive rights.
That's why I said, "I totally agree" with the statement: "I would not work somewhere where your reproductive rights are compromised."
Sorry if that somehow wasn't clear.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5922 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:35:39 PM
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I know of a priest outside of Boston who refused to perform a baptism on twin who were conceived using IVF.
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This makes me really sad. I also found it really sad when I heard about that story where a Catholic family wanted to know if it was possible for their child with a wheat allergy to receive some other type of communion wafer and they were told no.
1:15 PM
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PeaPoster
*rosebud*
PeaNut
PeaNut 228820 - 10/24/2005
Posts: 385 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:39:25 PM
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It is confusing, Tina.
In the end, for me, all of it was more than I could reconcile so I am no longer a practicing Catholic.
I do give the Catholic Church major points for consistency. For me, it was too much rigidity and started not to make sense logically. Even though I am no longer Catholic (in one sense, it is hard to completely shrug off your Catholic identity because so much is deeply entrenched in your psche), I do get angry about some of the rigidity. This rule-following rigidity played a big part in the woman I am today - the good and the bad! Of course, it still effects me - it made me who I am!
I think your comments about intent are very important, and it does get fuzzy. The whole "open to the possibility of life" argument is also the reason the church is against oral sex even between a married couple and, uhm, self-gratification. Now if they started to fire all eachers who engage in either of those things - Whoaaaaa, Nelly!
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huskerscrapper
Looser Liberal Lair
PeaNut 49249 - 9/16/2002
Posts: 29129 Layouts: 123
Loc: Husker Nation
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:40:21 PM
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She broke a contract. The school had a right to fire her.
I disagree with many of the Catholic teachings, but they have the right to make their rules and ask their members to follow them.
Unless it somehow affects society or people outside the Catholic faith, I don't fret over Catholic teachings.
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:47:18 PM
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My point being was that I got called down for being 'judgemental' of folks who claimed to practice Catholicism but still contracept are pro-choice, pro-death penalty, etc...these same people that have no problem judging the sins of these priests.
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Ah ha. I see!
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:49:30 PM
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I also found it really sad when I heard about that story where a Catholic family wanted to know if it was possible for their child with a wheat allergy to receive some other type of communion wafer and they were told no.
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My mom's church offers a gluten free host. During my grandmother's funeral, it caused a much needed moment of levity. Our whole family was raised in the church, so we can repeat the communion part by rote. So for the priest to suddenly throw in, "We offer a gluten-free host for those requiring it" . . . well, we all started to giggle a bit at how out of place it sounded in the holy mass.
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:50:39 PM
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Here's something from the Second Vatican Council. Basically, what it's saying is this, PLEASE-if I'm wrong, PLEASE correct me, truly...but the Church doesn't want married couple procreating just because they are physically capable of doing so. The Church expects and demands when you bring give life to a child, you take care of it responsibly and treat the child like the gift from God that it is. Raising them to be happy, productive 'warriors for the faith.' The church specifically states that family size is a private decision made by the couple and God alone. What the Church expects is that you go about your family size in a natural way. If this particular month, it is not feasible financially, emotionally, etc for you to conceive, then the Church expects you to obstain from the conjugal act. By obstaining, you are respecting your spouse's fertility...but not keeping God out of the equation. The church teaches that every conjugal act between married couples be open to new life. It is not immoral to avoid pregnancy by obstaing.
Gaudium et Spes (Second Vatican Council)
50.2 Parents should regard as their proper mission the task of transmitting human life and educating those to whom it has been transmitted. They should realize that they are thereby cooperators with the love of God the Creator, and are, so to speak, the interpreters of that love. Thus they will fulfill their task with human and Christian responsibility, and, with docile reverence toward God, will make decisions by common counsel and effort. Let them thoughtfully take into account both their own welfare and that of their children, those already born and those which the future may bring. For this accounting they need to reckon with both the material and the spiritual conditions of the times as well as of their state in life. Finally, they should consult the interests of the family group, of temporal society, and of the Church herself. The parents themselves and no one else should ultimately make this judgment in the sight of God. But in their manner of acting, spouses should be aware that they cannot proceed arbitrarily, but must always be governed according to a conscience dutifully conformed to the divine law itself, and should be submissive toward the Church's teaching office, which authentically interprets that law in the light of the Gospel. That divine law reveals and protects the integral meaning of conjugal love, and impels it toward a truly human fulfillment. Thus, trusting in divine Providence and refining the spirit of sacrifice,(12) married Christians glorify the Creator and strive toward fulfillment in Christ when with a generous human and Christian sense of responsibility they acquit themselves of the duty to procreate. Among the couples who fulfill their God-given task in this way, those merit special mention who with a gallant heart and with wise and common deliberation, undertake to bring up suitably even a relatively large family.(13)
Marriage to be sure is not instituted solely for procreation; rather, its very nature as an unbreakable compact between persons, and the welfare of the children, both demand that the mutual love of the spouses be embodied in a rightly ordered manner, that it grow and ripen. Therefore, marriage persists as a whole manner and communion of life, and maintains its value and indissolubility, even when despite the often intense desire of the couple, offspring are lacking.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:51:07 PM
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I know of a priest outside of Boston who refused to perform a baptism on twin who were conceived using IVF.
This makes me really sad. I also found it really sad when I heard about that story where a Catholic family wanted to know if it was possible for their child with a wheat allergy to receive some other type of communion wafer and they were told no.
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If a priest ever denied baptism to a child it is pretty easy to just go to their Bishop, get the child baptized and have the priest dealt with for thinking he has any right to deny the sacraments.
On the issue of wheat allergy and the Eucharist... the child is still welcome to partake in Communion by not taking the host, and instead taking the wine. No biggie. The church teaches that Christ is present completely in both species of Communion so you can take one or the other.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5922 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:51:31 PM
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Tina, that's really nice. I felt awful for the family I read about because they wanted to take part in the communion together and they weren't allowed to do so.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:55:28 PM
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The whole "open to the possibility of life" argument is also the reason the church is against oral sex even between a married couple
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Ok, so I have to respond to this one with my favorite fun fact about Catholic teachings on sex...
The Catholic Church actually teaches that it is A-Ok for a woman to recieve oral (within the bounds of married sex, in order to reach fulfillment) - and a man can too... but not to fulfillment.
And people say the Church doesn't like women!
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MNBonnie
The Daily Pea with Jon Stewart
PeaNut 64193 - 1/22/2003
Posts: 7013 Layouts: 16
Loc: Peaing in my Crocs
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:57:49 PM
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And people say the Church doesn't like women!
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That totally made me LOL! Thanks for clarifying Mapchic.
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:59:29 PM
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Mapchic...
ROFLMFO!! Gotta love that thing called the Catholic Church!!
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 1:05:12 PM
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Catholics are supposed to leave themselves open to the possibility of life with each sexual encounter. But they're not really doing that if they abstain when life is most likely to be conceived.
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Ok, you actually have the answer here already.
In every sexual encounter Catholics are supposed to be open to the possibility of life. If they abstain... then no sexual encounter is occuring.
It's a whole delicate balance between human free will (to abstain) and God's will (to create life).
I am really not the right person to explain this, because as I said above... I'm not living it. All I can do is try and explain why the church teaches what it does on these issues. However it is a really complicated, complex topic.
Maybe it will help you if you think of the fact that in the Catholic church married sex is a continuation of a sacrament. It is literally a holy act (a darn fun one at that!) and it is regulated accordingly.
If you really want to understand why NFP is OK and artificial BC is not, I would suggest you check out this article. God, Sex and Babies It is a pretty good explanation (much easier to read that Humanae Vitae!)
Here is the conclusion from that article...
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In contrast to the world’s "disincarnate" view of love, the Church teaches that matter matters. What we do with our bodies expresses our deepest held convictions about ourselves, God, the meaning of love, and the ordering of the universe. When the Church’s sacramental view of the body is taken seriously, we understand that sexual union is not only a biological process, but a profound theological process: "This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the Church" (Eph. 5:32).
The Church’s well-balanced teaching on responsible parenthood is a divine gift given to protect the supreme value of this sign. Imbalances on both extremes must be avoided if we are to ensure fidelity to the sign of marital love and an ever-clearer proclamation of the divine mystery in the world.
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*rosebud*
PeaNut
PeaNut 228820 - 10/24/2005
Posts: 385 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 1:05:28 PM
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The Catholic Church actually teaches that it is A-Ok for a woman to recieve oral (within the bounds of married sex, in order to reach fulfillment) - and a man can too... but not to fulfillment.
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Okay, I did know that!! I did mean specifically men reaching to fulfillment because of the life argument.
Really, my only issue with this particular case is my knowledge that things like this are usually unfairly enforced.
If there are no fruits of your sin, your career and reputation are not in jeopardy and relatively few Catholics would care about those "sins" anyway (IVF, birth control, what two married people do in their own bedroom!).
If there are fruits of those sin, there's some sort of scandal. Happened in high school all the time - the girls who were pregnant and wanted to keep their babies were shipped off to a different all-girls school, not allowed to "walk" for graduation, etc. Never heard of anything happening to the girls' boyfriends. My opinion is probably colored by all of that, I'm sure.
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1:15 PM
mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:01:41 AM
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ALL of the "teachings" of the Catholic Church? Really? All? And what constitutes "teaching" anyway? Are teachers being routinely fired for using birth control, having premarital sex, missing mass on Holy Days of obligation, receiving Eucharist with mortal sin on your soul without first receiving reconciliation...where does it end?
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Yes, really all. What constitutes a teaching of the Church is conveniently listed in the Catechism.
Are teachers being fired for violating different rules? Yes. There was the case of the male teacher in MA fired because he got his girlfriend pregnant (sex outside of marriage), birth control is a tricky one... nobody would know unless you told them. However, if you do publicise that then yes, you are liable to get fired.
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I agree. I would not work somewhere where your reproductive rights are compromised. It's none of their business how her child was conceived.
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This is an interesting quote.
Are you saying that your personal 'reproductive rights' trump other peoples religious rights?
I actually think that his has a great deal in common with the stories of pharmacists who are being fired for not dispensing the morning after pill.
In both cases the private employer has the right to expect their employees will follow certain norms of conduct... and when the employees fails to do that... they are liable to get fired.
I wonder how many people who are outraged that this teacher is getting fired also believed that pharmacists who refuse to dispense BC and the Morning After pill should be fired?
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Anewday
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 246606 - 1/31/2006
Posts: 2473 Layouts: 13
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:14:25 AM
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I wonder how many people who are outraged that this teacher is getting fired also believed that pharmacists who refuse to dispense BC and the Morning After pill should be fired?
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I believe the employer in both instances has the right to fire the employee.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:21:21 AM
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Let me be clear - I totally believe that private employers have the right to fire employees for not living up to the terms of their contracts... Both if they are teachers as in this case, or if they are pharmicists in the other.
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MNBonnie
The Daily Pea with Jon Stewart
PeaNut 64193 - 1/22/2003
Posts: 7013 Layouts: 16
Loc: Peaing in my Crocs
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:21:51 AM
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I feel the same as Lauren. I think the Catholic school should be allowed to fire the teacher and the pharmacy has the right to fire the pharmacist if they refuse to fill perscriptions. But I also feel a Catholic hospital has every right in the world to not perform abortions, stock morning after pills or any kind of birth control pill.
Unless abuse or violence is being done within a church, the government should stay the hell out of churches' business, and the churches should do the same of the government, IMO.
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KahluaKoala
PeaAddict
PeaNut 187179 - 1/23/2005
Posts: 1582 Layouts: 0
Loc: Miami Florida
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:25:11 AM
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I Vote for her baby to enter Seminary School and become the Pope ......
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*rosebud*
PeaNut
PeaNut 228820 - 10/24/2005
Posts: 385 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:25:33 AM
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re teachers being fired for violating different rules? Yes. There was the case of the male teacher in MA fired because he got his girlfriend pregnant (sex outside of marriage), birth control is a tricky one... nobody would know unless you told them. However, if you do publicise that then yes, you are liable to get fired.
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I agree that you are liable to get fired. However, look at the situation you described above. If this guy had only broken two rules rather than one (premarital sex and birth control or premarital sex and abortion), he could have kept his job.
That's why I think the enforcement gets so tricky and can border on the absurd. Break every last one quietly and you are golden. Break one publicly - even one that many Catholics routinely break and feel no moral dilemma in breaking; ones that some priests even tell parishioners to follow their own consciouses about - and you lose your job. And then you are jobless and the child suffers - the blameless child.
Yes, they absolutely have the right - but I really do think there should be some pragmatism and compassion in the application of the rules.
Full disclaimer: I was raised Catholic and educated in Catholic Schools for 17 years (kindergarten through college). I was never a particularly "good Catholic" and completely left the religion about 5 years ago. But I can't deny that the upbringing and teachings still profoundly effect me.
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9grtkds
PeaNut
PeaNut 249528 - 2/18/2006
Posts: 367 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:31:54 AM
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I have always been told that a portion of the Catholic Church's rules on IVF are.....the number of embryos created. I have a number of friends who are now struggling with what to do with their extra embryos. They are adamently opposed to destroying them, they do not feel that they want to enlarge their families and embryo adoption seems too hard.
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Peas OnEarth
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 179732 - 12/4/2004
Posts: 5591 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:33:04 AM
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Wow, that's taking things pretty far there! Sexual relations are a gift of marriage, to be shared with one's spouse, not with anyone outside the marriage, including children. God does not condone molesting children.
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I was speaking the scandal with priests. I am sorry but the part I originally quoted where it said that fertility treatments are a mortal sin really pissed me off. Again, I am not Catholic and they can feel anyway they want. It is just ironic to me what they consider a mortal sin. With all the people creating life and throwing it away, not treating their children well, divorce etc.. I just find it odd that a husband and wife who love eachother trying to have a child is a mortal sin. I am not bashing every single Catholic. Some of my family are Catholics. I do think whoever wrote that docterine on infertility is mean and crazy.
I would respect the Catholic church more if the Priests who were accoused of molestation had been prosecuted as opposed to moved to other parishes. I also have a problem with any church or church leader who knows that someone is being accused of molestation and legal action is not taken. All organized religion is pretty hypocritical in my view.
As for the teacher, the school she works at has a right to fire her.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:55:54 AM
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the part I originally quoted where it said that fertility treatments are a mortal sin really pissed me off. Again, I am not Catholic and they can feel anyway they want. It is just ironic to me what they consider a mortal sin. With all the people creating life and throwing it away, not treating their children well, divorce etc..
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Can I ask a question here... Why does it piss you off?
If you are not Catholic why would it piss you off what the teachings of the Catholic Church are?
I mean they don't apply to you, you have no obligation to follow them, there is no reason they should anger you in any way because they don't imparct your life in any way.
Anyway, all those other societal problems you listed are also considered sins in the eyes of the church. So you can't blame them for not speaking out against them and instead speaking out against IVF.
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I am not bashing every single Catholic.
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No, just those who follow the teachings of the Church.
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Peas de Resistance
BucketHead
PeaNut 251396 - 3/2/2006
Posts: 625 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 10:57:25 AM
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I know of a priest outside of Boston who refused to perform a baptism on twin who were conceived using IVF.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:05:01 AM
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My children attend school in the system where this teacher was fired. The contract she signed clearly stated that everyone must uphold the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Contracts are given out annually and the teachers have a month to go through it before signing and turning it back into the system. Although I do not agree with the church's stand on IVF, the system does have the right to fire her for not upholding her contract. Ironically, the president of the system has admitted that it is quite likely that there are teachers in the system who use birth control or have had a vascetomy, and since the system doesn't know about it, there is nothing they can do about it. However, I would guess if it came to light those teachers would be fired as well.
Lisa
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:23:01 AM
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I thought that sterilization was OK for Catholics? Somebody could be fired for having a vasectomy too?
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:24:24 AM
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I thought that sterilization was OK for Catholics?
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Nope, not OK.
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:25:02 AM
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Thanks Mapchic.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:26:54 AM
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I may be wrong, but I thought that the only acceptable form of birth control is the rhythm method. I do know that Catholic hospitals will not do a tubal ligation.
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:26:55 AM
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Ok, so I'm confused. If no birth control is OK, why is natural family planning OK? Isn't it still standing in God's way of creating life? What is the difference between taking a pill and abstaining while ovulation? It's still self-will controlling fertility.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:27:25 AM
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I may be wrong, but I thought that the only acceptable form of birth control is the rhythm method. I do know that Catholic hospitals will not do a tubal ligation.
Lisa
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mtomseth
BucketHead
PeaNut 191190 - 2/14/2005
Posts: 953 Layouts: 0
Loc: Pacific Northwest
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:30:33 AM
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I Vote for her baby to enter Seminary School and become the Pope ......
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That will never happen... both of her babies are girls.
I believe the Catholic school has the right to enforce the employment contract which states employees will abide by church rules. This teacher needs to find a teaching position at a school that isn't opposed to IVF.
Because I believe in the right to make my own reproductive choices I would never go to work for an organization that disagrees with my choices.
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:34:35 AM
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Tina, I do not have any answers for you because it confuses me as well.
Lisa
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:34:39 AM
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Ok, so I'm confused. If no birth control is OK, why is natural family planning OK? Isn't it still standing in God's way of creating life? What is the difference between taking a pill and abstaining while ovulation? It's still self-will controlling fertility.
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Here is the short answer... because when you are utilizing NFP every time you engage in sex you are open to the possibility of life. Without barriers of any kind between you and your spouse and God's will.
There is a lot more to it, and honestly someone who is married and practicing NFP can answer better than I. Because honestly, I haven't paid much attention to those teachings because as of now... they don't apply to me!
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Peas OnEarth
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 179732 - 12/4/2004
Posts: 5591 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:38:33 AM
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Can I ask a question here... Why does it piss you off?
If you are not Catholic why would it piss you off what the teachings of the Catholic Church are?
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It pisses me off because right now I am a week from finding out if I am pregnant and I am hormonal and stressed etc.. So are Catholics going to look at my family and say we are a sin or not conceived of love etc.. It upsets me that any other person would feel this way about helping loving couples conceive life.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:41:46 AM
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Why in the world would you care what Catholics think when you aren't even one of them? It's not like we are going to send an angry mob with torches and pitchforks to your door.
I certainly don't sit around all worried everytime I eat a ham sandwich I'm going to be judged by Jewish people or Muslims.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:45:10 AM
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So are Catholics going to look at my family and say we are a sin or not conceived of love etc.. It upsets me that any other person would feel this way about helping loving couples conceive life.
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Why should you care what other people think?
Anyway, I am not judging you or anyone else who chooses to have IVF. That's not my responsiblity.
I am just saying to for *me* it would be a sin (because I am working hard to faithfully follow the teachings of the Catholic Church).
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LisaN
PeaWee
PeaNut 3988 - 4/24/2000
Posts: 7 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:46:32 AM
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As I said in an earlier post, I do not agree with the church's teachings on IVF. It should not matter whether assistance is needed or not to conceive a child, they are all God's children and should be loved. We should be more concerned about the parents who abuse their children, not on how a woman became pregnant.
Lisa
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:48:12 AM
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I think it's a little ironic that folks are so quick to judge priests who have sinned but yet are so quick to "not want to be judged by others for their sins..."
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Not sure I understand what you mean by this, but yes, call me judgmental. I cannot think of a more horrible sin/crime than to violate a child especially when you have taken a vow to uphold the teachings of the church and are in a position where you are a trusted member of the community.
I think the reason the pedophile Priest issue is being discussed is because the Church protected these Priests, versus protecting the child. So when you come down on IVF, it rings a little hollow.
But I'm not a Catholic. I don't dislike Catholism, just don't care for anyone that protects sexual predators. I understand pedophilia is not isolated to one religion. I just wish that the congregations would rise up against these horrible creatures versus making excuses and protecting them.
That being said, I do agree that you sign a contract, you abide by it.
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:48:55 AM
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This is cut and pasted from http://www.bygpub.com/natural/index.htm:
The idea behind natural family planning is very simple. A woman is fertile for only about 100 to 120 hours during a month. Let's call this time period the "window of fertility." By avoiding sexual intimacy during the window of fertility, pregnancy can be avoided. This method can also help achieve pregnancy by understanding the fertility cycle better and learning when the probability of concieving is highest. The question that various natural family planning methods are trying to answer is "How do I determine exactly when the window of fertility starts and ends?" If the window could be determined with 100% accuracy, then natural family planning would be a nearly perfect birth control method. However, the window can only be estimated (estimated though with high probability). To determine the window of fertility, these methods use such things as temperature, mucus, and cervical changes.
This is cut and pasted from the Couple to Couple League website:
First, we believe that God is the Author of nature; He is the one who put together in the marriage act what we call "making love" and "making babies." It is God who in His providence has allowed us to learn in the late 20th century about woman’s alternating fertility and infertility — and about Natural Family Planning — at the same time that other medical advances greatly increased the population survival rate. NFP allows couples to prudently regulate births without recourse to unnatural, immoral methods of birth control that interfere with the way God designed our fertility.
As astonishing as this statement may seem, throughout history natural methods have never been less effective than the unnatural, non-surgical methods. (Moral methods may not be as convenient, and they do require self-control, but that is a wonderful and rewarding virtue to acquire, as many NFP couples will attest.) In the 1930s the Ogino-Knaus Rhythm Method of NFP was as effective as the most effective "new" contraceptive barrier methods. In the 1960s, when the Pill launched the Sexual Revolution, the Sympto-Thermal Method of NFP (as taught by CCL today) was as effective as the Pill.
Religious and moral convictions guide anyone’s decisions about sexual behavior. We believe that when people are fully informed about the advantages of NFP they will see that this method best agrees with their convictions as well as their practical desires for happier marriages and healthier lives.
NFP does not mean "Not for Protestants." You don’t have to be Catholic to have strong convictions that it is wrong to use unnatural methods of birth control. "Such 'providentialists' should at least learn the rules for ecological breastfeeding, God's own way of spacing babies." For a better understanding of the moral issue of birth control and to find out the true position of the Catholic Church on this matter, please see Church Teachings on NFP. and especially the full text of Pope Paul VI's encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (On Human Life).
The Couple to Couple League (CCL) is an international, interfaith, non-profit organization dedicated to teaching Natural Family Planning (NFP) to married and engaged couples. It is essentially a volunteer organization because services are provided by professionally-trained volunteers who are supported by a relatively small staff at the international headquarters in Cincinnati, Ohio. Local Chapters of the organization consist mainly of certified Teaching Couples and Promoters, along with other supportive members.
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Jen M
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 4355 - 5/16/2000
Posts: 2288 Layouts: 15
Loc: MI
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:51:58 AM
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But the congregations are rising up against them. My pastor was arrested for child porn and he was reported by a parishoner. The people protested so loudly to the archdioceses that there have been an enormous amount of change in who is able to have contact with children. I personally had to go through 2 background checks and attend an all-day seminar on sexual predators.
Of course, all of this has nothing to do with the actual issue - a teacher signing a contract and then complaining about being fired when she fails to live up to the terms.
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tupperwarepam
PeaFixture
PeaNut 170575 - 10/1/2004
Posts: 3051 Layouts: 0
Loc: niagara region ontario
Posted: 5/12/2006 11:54:53 AM
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I agree that she should have been fired for breaking her contract.
My moral beliefs do not jive with the Catholic Church.
JMHO!!
I think that the Teacher that was fired deserved to be fired for the sole reason she broke her signed contract.
What I however disagree with is her being fired.
I know clear as MUD!!
Her Priest failed her.
Does this make sense??? I believe that if you can not follow all of the teaching of your religion then it is you Priest, Minster, Rabbi that fails you.
I would however be interested to know if she regularly attends Mass.
So, because she says she did not know the rule about IVF she lost her job.
So, she either is a *bad* Catholic or a misinformed Catholic.
Either way she broke the contract.
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:07:35 PM
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But the congregations are rising up against them. My pastor was arrested for child porn and he was reported by a parishoner. The people protested so loudly to the archdioceses that there have been an enormous amount of change in who is able to have contact with children. I personally had to go through 2 background checks and attend an all-day seminar on sexual predators.
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That's good to hear. I think it's happening more and more these days, although we just had a Priest in this area accused of sexual assault on 2 girls and someone who is in the coongregation interviewed said it was impossible. Granted, that's anectdotal evidence, so disregard.
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Of course, all of this has nothing to do with the actual issue - a teacher signing a contract and then complaining about being fired when she fails to live up to the terms.
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True dat.
I was just commenting that it's interesting what gets quickly dismissed and expelled and what doesn't. Priests are often given second chances when they break vows, often with disatrous consequences.
In fact, in the latest local case (see link), the Diocese knew of allegations of a Priest inappropriate relationship with a woman and he remained at the Church only to have later be alleged (credible allegations) of sexual misconduct with minors.
Granted, this is not related to the teacher or relevant to her situation. I'm just trying to explain my distaste.
Enough said. I'll shut-up even though I promised that 2 times already. This time I mean it...
Article
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:18:02 PM
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aka Sasha,
My point being was that I got called down for being 'judgemental' of folks who claimed to practice Catholicism but still contracept are pro-choice, pro-death penalty, etc...these same people that have no problem judging the sins of these priests. I'm not saying what they did wasn't wrong...it was horrific. The leadership of the church should be held accountable for how they handled the situation or their lack thereof.
But as I was told, it's not my place to judge...I would think that standard would be applied across the board...
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:18:56 PM
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Thanks for posting that info, Michelle. I still don't get it. The rationale seems to be that NFP is OK because it's "natural." But Clomid is "unnatural" and it's OK? It's all still stepping in the way of God's will, isn't it?
And thanks to Mapchic for your explanation. It seem that intent is also important. Catholics are supposed to leave themselves open to the possibility of life with each sexual encounter. But they're not really doing that if they abstain when life is most likely to be conceived. Their intent in their intimate life is still to prevent life. I don't see how they can be open to the possibility of life when it's not really possible to conceive. It seems like rationalization to me.
If God is the author of life, doesn't He decide when conception will occur? If all life is sacred, why try to stop potential life? Why support attempts to stand in God's way? Isn't God more powerful than any pill or calendar?
Forgive me if I seem confrontational. I'm not trying to be. I just honestly can't wrap my brain around it. I was married in a Catholic ceremony, so I went through Pre-Cana, complete with the NFP video and discussion. I had the same questions then, which my priest could not answer. He said that NFP was the recommendation of the church, but to pray on how God wanted us to handle our fertility. I guess the fact that I was already 5 months pregnant at the wedding kind of showed that we were open to babies, huh?
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Nightowl scrapper
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 103889 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 2509 Layouts: 0
Loc: California
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:22:46 PM
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I think the comparison between the pharmacist being fired for not dispensing morning after pills and the teacher being fired is a very appropriate one. Both involved employees whose personal moral values conflicted with their employer's policy. The same people slamming the church for firing the employee would be slamming the pharmacist for refusing to dispense the medication. And there is inconsistency because the 2 situations ARE analogous. The consistency is that people side with the party they personally agree with or feel empathy for, not what is an absolute principle.
This is the very reason the Vatican issues instructions on dealing with current day issues. People make decisions based on emotion. Most of you horrified by the Church teaching on this subject either used IVF, had family/friends who used IVF, or would have used IVF if you had to. Your opinion on this matter is colored by emotion, which is precisely what human beings do.
Religious truth is not driven by emotion, it is driven by precedent, and/or by what is believed to be God-inspired teaching. It does not change with technology or opinion polls. What the Vatican did was to apply centuries old teachings regarding marital relations and the value of life, teachings about the reason God gives a child to a couple (as a "gift" not a "right" ) . They applied these traditional teachings as best they could to a new technology that could not have been directly addressed in the Bible because it did not exist. I'm sure they knew that the teachings would not be popular, but I highly doubt they sat around thinking how they could cause further heartache to already hurting couples.
The fact is that reproductive technology does have implications beyond what IVF uses it for, and it is those implications of manipulating reproduction, believed to be the special responsibility of God, that were undoubtedly of concern to the men writing the catechism. They felt a line needed to be drawn, and this is how they chose to do it.
To those who see IVF as "Biblical" because it's just a modern day equivalent of what patriarchs such as Abraham and Jacob did in having multiple women bearing them children, look again at the results of those actions. Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham so he could have a son. Ishmael was not the physical child of a married couple, Sarah and Abraham, (though he may have been legally there in the legal standard of that day) he was the child of Abraham and Hagar; it's more analogous to a surrogacy contract gone terribly wrong (which I'm reasonably sure is also against Catholic teaching). Hagar took care of Ishmael, she didn't turn him over to Sarah. And the consequences of Abraham trying to manipulate God's will in this way still plague mankind. Yet Abraham's reasoning was that he just wanted a son, and doing this was perfectly legal in his day, so how could that be a bad thing?
I would be very surprised if the Abraham/Hagar situation was not just one of the Biblical references considered in determining God's plan for conceiving children within a marriage. And just because men and women in the Bible did things, you cannot assume that they were okay with God. Yes, God uses sinful people to carry out his will, but that doesn't mean life wouldn't have been even better if they hadn't done those sins. Actions have consequences, some we don't fully understand.
Now, if you've read this far and decide I am cold-bloodedly against IVF, you would be very mistaken. I do, however, see why church leaders believed it appropriate to draw a line regarding this technology. I do see how it has been misused.
Those caught up in the very real, aching desire for a child find it difficult to accept an opinion that appears to close the door to them achieving a successful pregnancy. If you're not Catholic, don't get so worked up about it and seize the opportunity to slam the church for previous wrong actions; it is sufficient to understand they have a doctrine you don't agree with. It would be well to look carefully at the specific reasoning spelled out in Jen's posts and think about it seriously, whether you agree or not. Correct, factual information is of value to our thought process.
If you are Catholic and don't agree, you must reconcile that with your own conscience. I think the fact that they provided an "out" of having intercourse just before the medical procedure is interesting, and shows a serious attempt at compassion to those affected by this.
And for the record, I am not Catholic and never have been.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5922 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:32:12 PM
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Are you saying that your personal 'reproductive rights' trump other peoples religious rights?
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Um. No.
I'm saying that I wouldn't work somewhere that tried to influence my reproductive rights.
That's why I said, "I totally agree" with the statement: "I would not work somewhere where your reproductive rights are compromised."
Sorry if that somehow wasn't clear.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5922 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:35:39 PM
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I know of a priest outside of Boston who refused to perform a baptism on twin who were conceived using IVF.
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This makes me really sad. I also found it really sad when I heard about that story where a Catholic family wanted to know if it was possible for their child with a wheat allergy to receive some other type of communion wafer and they were told no.
1:15 PM
Anonymous said...
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PeaPoster
*rosebud*
PeaNut
PeaNut 228820 - 10/24/2005
Posts: 385 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:39:25 PM
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It is confusing, Tina.
In the end, for me, all of it was more than I could reconcile so I am no longer a practicing Catholic.
I do give the Catholic Church major points for consistency. For me, it was too much rigidity and started not to make sense logically. Even though I am no longer Catholic (in one sense, it is hard to completely shrug off your Catholic identity because so much is deeply entrenched in your psche), I do get angry about some of the rigidity. This rule-following rigidity played a big part in the woman I am today - the good and the bad! Of course, it still effects me - it made me who I am!
I think your comments about intent are very important, and it does get fuzzy. The whole "open to the possibility of life" argument is also the reason the church is against oral sex even between a married couple and, uhm, self-gratification. Now if they started to fire all eachers who engage in either of those things - Whoaaaaa, Nelly!
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huskerscrapper
Looser Liberal Lair
PeaNut 49249 - 9/16/2002
Posts: 29129 Layouts: 123
Loc: Husker Nation
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:40:21 PM
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She broke a contract. The school had a right to fire her.
I disagree with many of the Catholic teachings, but they have the right to make their rules and ask their members to follow them.
Unless it somehow affects society or people outside the Catholic faith, I don't fret over Catholic teachings.
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aka Sasha
Less filling, tastes great
PeaNut 162449 - 8/12/2004
Posts: 10293 Layouts: 10
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:47:18 PM
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My point being was that I got called down for being 'judgemental' of folks who claimed to practice Catholicism but still contracept are pro-choice, pro-death penalty, etc...these same people that have no problem judging the sins of these priests.
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Ah ha. I see!
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TinaFB
I am an elephant
PeaNut 25135 - 11/26/2001
Posts: 14120 Layouts: 258
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:49:30 PM
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I also found it really sad when I heard about that story where a Catholic family wanted to know if it was possible for their child with a wheat allergy to receive some other type of communion wafer and they were told no.
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My mom's church offers a gluten free host. During my grandmother's funeral, it caused a much needed moment of levity. Our whole family was raised in the church, so we can repeat the communion part by rote. So for the priest to suddenly throw in, "We offer a gluten-free host for those requiring it" . . . well, we all started to giggle a bit at how out of place it sounded in the holy mass.
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:50:39 PM
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Here's something from the Second Vatican Council. Basically, what it's saying is this, PLEASE-if I'm wrong, PLEASE correct me, truly...but the Church doesn't want married couple procreating just because they are physically capable of doing so. The Church expects and demands when you bring give life to a child, you take care of it responsibly and treat the child like the gift from God that it is. Raising them to be happy, productive 'warriors for the faith.' The church specifically states that family size is a private decision made by the couple and God alone. What the Church expects is that you go about your family size in a natural way. If this particular month, it is not feasible financially, emotionally, etc for you to conceive, then the Church expects you to obstain from the conjugal act. By obstaining, you are respecting your spouse's fertility...but not keeping God out of the equation. The church teaches that every conjugal act between married couples be open to new life. It is not immoral to avoid pregnancy by obstaing.
Gaudium et Spes (Second Vatican Council)
50.2 Parents should regard as their proper mission the task of transmitting human life and educating those to whom it has been transmitted. They should realize that they are thereby cooperators with the love of God the Creator, and are, so to speak, the interpreters of that love. Thus they will fulfill their task with human and Christian responsibility, and, with docile reverence toward God, will make decisions by common counsel and effort. Let them thoughtfully take into account both their own welfare and that of their children, those already born and those which the future may bring. For this accounting they need to reckon with both the material and the spiritual conditions of the times as well as of their state in life. Finally, they should consult the interests of the family group, of temporal society, and of the Church herself. The parents themselves and no one else should ultimately make this judgment in the sight of God. But in their manner of acting, spouses should be aware that they cannot proceed arbitrarily, but must always be governed according to a conscience dutifully conformed to the divine law itself, and should be submissive toward the Church's teaching office, which authentically interprets that law in the light of the Gospel. That divine law reveals and protects the integral meaning of conjugal love, and impels it toward a truly human fulfillment. Thus, trusting in divine Providence and refining the spirit of sacrifice,(12) married Christians glorify the Creator and strive toward fulfillment in Christ when with a generous human and Christian sense of responsibility they acquit themselves of the duty to procreate. Among the couples who fulfill their God-given task in this way, those merit special mention who with a gallant heart and with wise and common deliberation, undertake to bring up suitably even a relatively large family.(13)
Marriage to be sure is not instituted solely for procreation; rather, its very nature as an unbreakable compact between persons, and the welfare of the children, both demand that the mutual love of the spouses be embodied in a rightly ordered manner, that it grow and ripen. Therefore, marriage persists as a whole manner and communion of life, and maintains its value and indissolubility, even when despite the often intense desire of the couple, offspring are lacking.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:51:07 PM
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I know of a priest outside of Boston who refused to perform a baptism on twin who were conceived using IVF.
This makes me really sad. I also found it really sad when I heard about that story where a Catholic family wanted to know if it was possible for their child with a wheat allergy to receive some other type of communion wafer and they were told no.
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If a priest ever denied baptism to a child it is pretty easy to just go to their Bishop, get the child baptized and have the priest dealt with for thinking he has any right to deny the sacraments.
On the issue of wheat allergy and the Eucharist... the child is still welcome to partake in Communion by not taking the host, and instead taking the wine. No biggie. The church teaches that Christ is present completely in both species of Communion so you can take one or the other.
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anthacat
ET's LG Pea
PeaNut 103801 - 8/28/2003
Posts: 5922 Layouts: 133
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:51:31 PM
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Tina, that's really nice. I felt awful for the family I read about because they wanted to take part in the communion together and they weren't allowed to do so.
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:55:28 PM
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The whole "open to the possibility of life" argument is also the reason the church is against oral sex even between a married couple
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Ok, so I have to respond to this one with my favorite fun fact about Catholic teachings on sex...
The Catholic Church actually teaches that it is A-Ok for a woman to recieve oral (within the bounds of married sex, in order to reach fulfillment) - and a man can too... but not to fulfillment.
And people say the Church doesn't like women!
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MNBonnie
The Daily Pea with Jon Stewart
PeaNut 64193 - 1/22/2003
Posts: 7013 Layouts: 16
Loc: Peaing in my Crocs
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:57:49 PM
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And people say the Church doesn't like women!
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That totally made me LOL! Thanks for clarifying Mapchic.
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momofacpsjma
PeaNut
PeaNut 38841 - 5/23/2002
Posts: 242 Layouts: 27
Appalachian Scrappin' Retreats
Posted: 5/12/2006 12:59:29 PM
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Mapchic...
ROFLMFO!! Gotta love that thing called the Catholic Church!!
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mapchic
Pea AMDG
PeaNut 31157 - 2/28/2002
Posts: 6946 Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
Posted: 5/12/2006 1:05:12 PM
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Catholics are supposed to leave themselves open to the possibility of life with each sexual encounter. But they're not really doing that if they abstain when life is most likely to be conceived.
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Ok, you actually have the answer here already.
In every sexual encounter Catholics are supposed to be open to the possibility of life. If they abstain... then no sexual encounter is occuring.
It's a whole delicate balance between human free will (to abstain) and God's will (to create life).
I am really not the right person to explain this, because as I said above... I'm not living it. All I can do is try and explain why the church teaches what it does on these issues. However it is a really complicated, complex topic.
Maybe it will help you if you think of the fact that in the Catholic church married sex is a continuation of a sacrament. It is literally a holy act (a darn fun one at that!) and it is regulated accordingly.
If you really want to understand why NFP is OK and artificial BC is not, I would suggest you check out this article. God, Sex and Babies It is a pretty good explanation (much easier to read that Humanae Vitae!)
Here is the conclusion from that article...
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In contrast to the world’s "disincarnate" view of love, the Church teaches that matter matters. What we do with our bodies expresses our deepest held convictions about ourselves, God, the meaning of love, and the ordering of the universe. When the Church’s sacramental view of the body is taken seriously, we understand that sexual union is not only a biological process, but a profound theological process: "This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the Church" (Eph. 5:32).
The Church’s well-balanced teaching on responsible parenthood is a divine gift given to protect the supreme value of this sign. Imbalances on both extremes must be avoided if we are to ensure fidelity to the sign of marital love and an ever-clearer proclamation of the divine mystery in the world.
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*rosebud*
PeaNut
PeaNut 228820 - 10/24/2005
Posts: 385 Layouts: 0
Posted: 5/12/2006 1:05:28 PM
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The Catholic Church actually teaches that it is A-Ok for a woman to recieve oral (within the bounds of married sex, in order to reach fulfillment) - and a man can too... but not to fulfillment.
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Okay, I did know that!! I did mean specifically men reaching to fulfillment because of the life argument.
Really, my only issue with this particular case is my knowledge that things like this are usually unfairly enforced.
If there are no fruits of your sin, your career and reputation are not in jeopardy and relatively few Catholics would care about those "sins" anyway (IVF, birth control, what two married people do in their own bedroom!).
If there are fruits of those sin, there's some sort of scandal. Happened in high school all the time - the girls who were pregnant and wanted to keep their babies were shipped off to a different all-girls school, not allowed to "walk" for graduation, etc. Never heard of anything happening to the girls' boyfriends. My opinion is probably colored by all of that, I'm sure.
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1:15 PM
HOW TO SAY NOTHING IN FIVE HUNDRED WORDS
Paul McHenry Roberts (1917-1967) taught college English for over twenty years, first at San Jose State College and later at Cornell University. He wrote numerous books on linguistics, including Understanding Grammar (1954), Patterns of English (1956), and Understanding English (1958).
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Freshman composition, like everything else, has its share of fashions. In the 195Os, when this article was written, the most popular argument raging among student essayists was the proposed abolition of college football. With the greater social consciousness of the early '60s, the topic of the day became the morality of capital punishment. Topics may change, but the core principles of good writing remain constant, and this essay as become something of a minor classic in explaining them. Be concrete, says Roberts; get to the point; express your opinions colorfully. Refreshingly, he even practices what he preaches. His essay is humorous, direct, and almost salty in summarizing the working habits that all good prose writers must cultivate. -- Editors' note from JoRay McCuen & Anthony C. Winkler's Readings for Writers , 3rd ed., Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1980
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It's Friday afternoon. and you have almost survived another week of classes. You are just looking forward dreamily to the weekend when the English instructor says: "For Monday you will turn in a five hundred-word composition on college football."
Well, that puts a good hole in the weekend. You don't have any strong views on college football one way or the other. You get rather excited during the season and go to all the home games and find it rather more fun than not. On the other hand, the class has been reading Robert Hutchins in the anthology and perhaps Shaw's "Eighty-Yard Run," and from the class discussion you have got the idea that the instructor thinks college football is for the birds. You are no fool. You can figure out what side to take.
After dinner you get out the portable typewriter that you got for high school graduation. You might as well get it over with and enjoy Saturday and Sunday. Five hundred words is about two double-spaced pages with normal margins. You put in a sheet of paper, think up a title, and you're off:
WHY COLLEGE FOOTBALL SHOULD BE ABOLISHED
College football should be abolished because it's bad for the school and also for the players. The players are so busy practicing that they don't have any time for their studies.
This, you feel, is a mighty good start. The only trouble is that it's only thirty-two words. You still have four hundred and sixty-eight to go, and you've pretty well exhausted the subject. It comes to you that you do your best thinking in the morning, so you put away the typewriter and go to the movies. But the next morning you have to do your washing and some math problems, and in the afternoon you go to the game. The English instructor turns up too, and you wonder if you've taken the right side after all. Saturday night you have a date, and Sunday morning you have to go to church. (You can't let English assignments interfere with your religion.) What with one thing and another, it's ten o'clock Sunday night before you get out the typewriter again. You make a pot of coffee and start to fill out your views on college football. Put a little meat on the bones.
WHY COLLEGE FOOTBALL SHOULD BE ABOLISHED
In my opinion, it seems to me that college football should be abolished. The reason why I think this to be true is because I feel that football is bad for the colleges in nearly every respect. As Robert Hutchins says in his article in our anthology in which he discusses college football, it would be better if the colleges had race horses and had races with one another, because then the horses would not have to attend classes. I firmly agree with Mr. Hutchins on this point, and I am sure that many other students would agree too.
One reason why it seems to me that college football is bad is that it has become too commercial. In the olden times when people played football just for the fun of it, maybe college football was all right, but they do not play college football just for the fun of it now as they used to in the old days. Nowadays college football is what you might call a big business. Maybe this is not true at all schools, and I don't think it is especially true here at State, but certainly this is the case at most colleges and universities in America nowadays, as Mr. Hutchins points out in his very interesting article. Actually the coaches and alumni go around to the high schools and offer the high school stars large salaries to come to their colleges and play football for them. There was one case where a high school star was offered a convertible if he would play football for a certain college.
Another reason for abolishing college football is that it is bad for the players. They do not have time to get a college education, because they are so busy playing football. A football player has to practice every afternoon from three to six and then he is so tired that he can't concentrate on his studies. He just feels like dropping off to sleep after dinner, and then the next day he goes to his classes without having studied and maybe he fails the test.
(Good ripe stuff so far, but you're still a hundred and fifty-one words from home. One more push.)
Also I think college football is bad for the colleges and the universities because not very many students get to participate in it. Out of a college of ten thousand students only seventy-five or a hundred play football, if that many. Football is what you might call a spectator sport. That means that most people go to watch it but do not play it themselves.
(Four hundred and fifteen. Well, you still have the conclusion, and when you retype it, you can make the margins a little wider.)
These are the reasons why I agree with Mr. Hutchins that college football should be abolished in American colleges and universities.
On Monday you turn it in, moderately hopeful, and on Friday it comes back marked "weak in content" and sporting a big "D." This essay is exaggerated a little, not much. The English instructor will recognize it as reasonably typical of what an assignment on college football will bring in. He knows that nearly half of the class will contrive in five hundred words to say that college football is too commercial and bad for the players. Most of the other half will inform him that college football builds character and prepares one for life and brings prestige to the school. As he reads paper after paper all saying the same thing in almost the same words, all bloodless, five hundred words dripping out of nothing, he wonders how he allowed himself to get trapped into teaching English when he might have had a happy and interesting life as an electrician or a confidence man.
Well, you may ask, what can you do about it? The subject is one on which you have few convictions and little information. Can you be expected to make a dull subject interesting? As a matter of fact, this is precisely what you are expected to do. This is the writer's essential task. All subjects, except sex, are dull until somebody makes them interesting. The writer's job is to find the argument, the approach, the angle, the wording that will take the reader with him. This is seldom easy, and it is particularly hard in subjects that have been much discussed: College Football, Fraternities, Popular Music, Is Chivalry Dead?, and the like. You will feel that there is nothing you can do with such subjects except repeat the old bromides. But there are some things you can do which will make your papers, if not throbbingly alive, at least less insufferably tedious than they might otherwise be.
AVOID THE OBVIOUS CONTENT
Say the assignment is college football. Say that you've decided to be against it. Begin by putting down the arguments that come to your mind: it is too commercial, it takes the students' minds off their studies, it is hard on the players, it makes the university a kind of circus instead of an intellectual center, for most schools it is financially ruinous. Can you think of any more arguments, just off hand? All right. Now when you write your paper, make sure that you don' t use any of the material on this list. If these are the points that leap to your mind, they will leap to everyone else's too, and whether you get a "C" or a "D" may depend on whether the instructor reads your paper early when he is fresh and tolerant or late, when the sentence "In my opinion, college football has become too commercial," inexorably repeated, has bought him to the brink of lunacy.
Be against college football for some reason or reasons of your own. If they are keen and perceptive ones, that's splendid. But even if they are trivial or foolish or indefensible, you are still ahead so long as they are not everybody else's reasons too. Be against it because the colleges don't spend enough money on it to make it worthwhile, because it is bad for the characters of the spectators, because the players are forced to attend classes, because the football stars hog all the beautiful women, because it competes with baseball and is therefore un-American and possibly Communist-inspired. There are lots of more or less unused reasons for being against college football.
Sometimes it is a good idea to sum up and dispose of the trite and conventional points before going on to your own. This has the advantage of indicating to the reader that you are going to be neither trite nor conventional. Something like this:
We are often told that college football should be abolished because it has become too commercial or because it is bad for the players. These arguments are no doubt very cogent, but they don't really go to the heart of the matter.
Then you go to the heart of the matter.
TAKE THE LESS USUAL SIDE
One rather simple way of getting into your paper is to take the side of the argument that most of the citizens will want to avoid. If the assignment is an essay on dogs, you can, if you choose, explain that dogs are faithful and lovable companions, intelligent, useful as guardians of the house and protectors of children, indispensable in police work -- in short, when all is said and done, man's best friends. Or you can suggest that those big brown eyes conceal, more often than not, a vacuity of mind and an inconstancy of purpose; that the dogs you have known most intimately have been mangy, ill-tempered brutes, incapable of instruction; and that only your nobility of mind and fear of arrest prevent you from kicking the flea-ridden animals when you pass them on the street.
Naturally personal convictions will sometimes dictate your approach. If the assigned subject is "Is Methodism Rewarding to the Individual?" and you are a pious Methodist, you have really no choice. But few assigned subjects, if any, will fall in this category. Most of them will lie in broad areas of discussion with much to be said on both sides. They are intellectual exercises, and it is legitimate to argue now one way and now another, as debaters do in similar circumstances. Always take the that looks to you hardest, least defensible. It will almost always turn out to be easier to write interestingly on that side.
This general advice applies where you have a choice of subjects. If you are to choose among "The Value of Fraternities" and "My Favorite High School Teacher" and "What I Think About Beetles," by all means plump for the beetles. By the time the instructor gets to your paper, he will be up to his ears in tedious tales about a French teacher at Bloombury High and assertions about how fraternities build character and prepare one for life. Your views on beetles, whatever they are, are bound to be a refreshing change.
Don't worry too much about figuring out what the instructor thinks about the subject so that you can cuddle up with him. Chances are his views are no stronger than yours. If he does have convictions and you oppose him, his problem is to keep from grading you higher than you deserve in order to show he is not biased. This doesn't mean that you should always cantankerously dissent from what the instructor says; that gets tiresome too. And if the subject assigned is "My Pet Peeve," do not begin, "My pet peeve is the English instructor who assigns papers on 'my pet peeve."' This was still funny during the War of 1812, but it has sort of lost its edge since then. It is in general good manners to avoid personalities.
SLIP OUT OF ABSTRACTION
If you will study the essay on college football [near the beginning of this essay], you will perceive that one reason for its appalling dullness is that it never gets down to particulars. It is just a series of not very glittering generalities: "football is bad for the colleges," "it has become too commercial," "football is big business," "it is bad for the players," and so on. Such round phrases thudding against the reader's brain are unlikely to convince him, though they may well render him unconscious.
If you want the reader to believe that college football is bad for the players, you have to do more than say so. You have to display the evil. Take your roommate, Alfred Simkins, the second-string center. Picture poor old Alfy coming home from football practice every evening, bruised and aching, agonizingly tired, scarcely able to shovel the mashed potatoes into his mouth. Let us see him staggering up to the room, getting out his econ textbook, peering desperately at it with his good eye, falling asleep and failing the test in the morning. Let us share his unbearable tension as Saturday draws near. Will he fail, be demoted, lose his monthly allowance, be forced to return to the coal mines? And if he succeeds, what will be his reward? Perhaps a slight ripple of applause when the third-string center replaces him, a moment of elation in the locker room if the team wins, of despair if it loses. What will he look back on when he graduates from college? Toil and torn ligaments. And what will be his future? He is not good enough for pro football, and he is too obscure and weak in econ to succeed in stocks and bonds. College football is tearing the heart from Alfy Simkins and, when it finishes with him, will callously toss aside the shattered hulk.
This is no doubt a weak enough argument for the abolition of college football, but it is a sight better than saying, in three or four variations, that college football (in your opinion) is bad for the players.
Look at the work of any professional writer and notice how constantly he is moving from the generality, the abstract statement, to the concrete example, the facts and figures, the illustrations. If he is writing on juvenile delinquency, he does not just tell you that juveniles are (it seems to him) delinquent and that (in his opinion) something should be done about it. He shows you juveniles being delinquent, tearing up movie theatres in Buffalo, stabbing high school principals in Dallas, smoking marijuana in Palo Alto. And more than likely he is moving toward some specific remedy, not just a general wringing of the hands.
It is no doubt possible to be too concrete, too illustrative or anecdotal, but few inexperienced writers err this way. For most the soundest advice is to be seeking always for the picture, to be always turning general remarks into seeable examples. Don't say, "Sororities teach girls the social graces." Say, "Sorority life teaches a girl how to carry on a conversation while pouring tea, without sloshing the tea into the saucer." Don't say, "I like certain kinds of popular music very much." Say, "Whenever I hear Gerber Sprinklittle play 'Mississippi Man' on the trombone, my socks creep up my ankles."
GET RID OF OBVIOUS PADDING
The student toiling away at his weekly English theme is too often tormented by a figure: five hundred words. How, he asks himself, is he to achieve this staggering total? Obviously by never using one word when he can somehow work in ten.
He is therefore seldom content with a plain statement like "Fast driving is dangerous." This has only four words in it. He takes thought, and the sentence becomes:
In my opinion, fast driving is dangerous.
Better, but he can do better still:
In my opinion, fast driving would seem to be rather dangerous.
If he is really adept, it may come out:
In my humble opinion. though I do not claim to be an expert on this complicated subject, test driving, in most circumstances, would seem to be rather dangerous in many respects, or at least so it would seem to me.
Thus four words have been turned into forty, and not an iota of content has been added.
Now this is a way to go about reaching five hundred words, and if you are content with a "D" grade, it is as good a way as any. But if you aim higher, you must work differently. Instead of stuffing your sentences with straw, you must try steadily to get rid of the padding, to make your sentences lean and tough. If you are really working at it, your first draft will greatly exceed the required total, and then you will work it down, thus:
It is thought in some quarters that fraternities do not contribute as much as might be expected to campus life.
Some people think that fraternities contribute little to campus life.
The average doctor who practices in small towns or in the country must toil night and day to heal the sick.
Most country doctors work long hours.
When I was a little girl, I suffered from shyness and embarrassment in the presence of others.
I was a shy little girl.
It is absolutely necessary for the person employed as a marine fireman to give the matter of steam pressure his undivided attention at all times.
The fireman has to keep his eye on the steam gauge.
You may ask how you can arrive at five hundred words at this rate. Simple. You dig up more real content. Instead of taking a couple of obvious points off the surface of the topic and then circling warily around them for six paragraphs, you work in and explore, figure out the details. You illustrate. You say that fast driving is dangerous, and then you prove it. How long does it take to stop a car at forty and at eighty? How far can you see at night? What happens when a tire blows? What happens in a head-on collision at fifty miles an hour?
Pretty soon your paper will be full of broken glass and blood and headless torsos, and reaching five hundred words will not really be a problem.
CALL A FOOL A FOOL
Some of the padding in freshman themes is to be blamed not on anxiety about the word minimum but on excessive timidity. The student writes, "In my opinion, the principal of my high school acted in ways that I believe every unbiased person would have to call foolish." This isn't exactly what he means. What he means is, "My high school principal was a fool." If he was a fool, call him a fool. Hedging the thing about with "in-my-opinion's" and "it-seems-to-me's" and "as-I-see-it's" and "at-least-from-my-point-of-view's" gains you nothing. Delete these phrases whenever they creep into your paper.
The student's tendency to hedge stems from a modesty that in other circumstances would be commendable. He is, he realizes, young and inexperienced, and he half suspects that he is dopey and fuzzyminded beyond the average. Probably only too true. But it doesn't help to announce your incompetence six times in every paragraph. Decide what you want to say and say it as vigorously as possible, without apology and in plain words.
Linguistic diffidence can take various forms. One is what we call euphemism. This is the tendency to call a spade "a certain garden implement" or women's underwear "unmentionables." It is stronger in some eras than others and in some people than others but it always operates more or less in subjects that are touchy or taboo: death, sex, madness, and so on. Thus we shrink from saying "He died last night" but say instead "passed away," "left us," "joined his Maker," "went to his reward." Or we try to take off the tension with a lighter cliché: "kicked the bucket," "cashed in his chips," "handed in his dinner pail." We have found all sorts of ways to avoid saying mad: "mentally ill," "touched," "not quite right upstairs," "feebleminded," "innocent," "simple," "off his trolley," "not in his right mind." Even such a now plain word as insane began as a euphemism with the meaning "not healthy."
Modern science, particularly psychology, contributes many polysyllables in which we can wrap our thoughts and blunt their force. To many writers there is no such thing as a bad schoolboy. Schoolboys are maladjusted or unoriented or misunderstood or in the need of guidance or lacking in continued success toward satisfactory integration of the personality as a social unit, but they are never bad. Psychology no doubt makes us better men and women, more sympathetic and tolerant, but it doesn't make writing any easier. Had Shakespeare been confronted with psychology, "To be or not to be" might have come out, "To continue as a social unit or not to do so. That is the personality problem. Whether 'tis a better sign of integration at the conscious level to display a psychic tolerance toward the maladjustments and repressions induced by one's lack of orientation in one's environment or -- " But Hamlet would never have finished the soliloquy.
Writing in the modern world, you cannot altogether avoid modern jargon. Nor, in an effort to get away from euphemism, should you salt your paper with four-letter words. But you can do much if you will mount guard against those roundabout phrases, those echoing polysyllables that tend to slip into your writing to rob it of its crispness and force.
BEWARE OF PAT EXPRESSIONS
Other things being equal, avoid phrases like "other things being equal." Those sentences that come to you whole, or in two or three doughy lumps, are sure to be bad sentences. They are no creation of yours but pieces of common thought floating in the community soup.
Pat expressions are hard, often impossible, to avoid, because they come too easily to be noticed and seem too necessary to be dispensed with. No writer avoids them altogether, but good writers avoid them more often than poor writers.
By "pat expressions" we mean such tags as "to all practical intents and purposes," "the pure and simple truth," "from where I sit," "the time of his life," "to the ends of the earth," "in the twinkling of an eye," "as sure as you're born," "over my dead body," "under cover of darkness," "took the easy way out," "when all is said and done," "told him time and time again," "parted the best of friends," "stand up and be counted," "gave him the best years of her life," "worked her fingers to the bone." Like other clichés, these expressions were once forceful. Now we should use them only when we can't possibly think of anything else.
Some pat expressions stand like a wall between the writer and thought. Such a one is "the American way of life." Many student writers feel that when they have said that something accords with the American way of life or does not they have exhausted the subject. Actually, they have stopped at the highest level of abstraction. The American way of life is the complicated set of bonds between a hundred and eighty million ways. All of us know this when we think about it, but the tag phrase too often keeps us from thinking about it.
So with many another phrase dear to the politician: "this great land of ours," "the man in the street," "our national heritage." These may prove our patriotism or give a clue to our political beliefs, but otherwise they add nothing to the paper except words.
COLORFUL WORDS
The writer builds with words, and no builder uses a raw material more slippery and elusive and treacherous. A writer's work is a constant struggle to get the right word in the right place, to find that particular word that will convey his meaning exactly, that will persuade the reader or soothe him or startle or amuse him. He never succeeds altogether -- sometimes he feels that he scarcely succeeds at all -- but such successes as he has are what make the thing worth doing.
There is no book of rules for this game. One progresses through everlasting experiment on the basis of ever-widening experience. There are few useful generalizations that one can make about words as words, but there are perhaps a few.
Some words are what we call "colorful." By this we mean that they are calculated to produce a picture or induce an emotion. They are dressy instead of plain, specific instead of general, loud instead of soft. Thus, in place of "Her heart beat," we may write, "her heart pounded, throbbed, fluttered, danced." Instead of "He sat in his chair," we may say, "he lounged, sprawled, coiled." Instead of "It was hot," we may say, "It was blistering, sultry, muggy, suffocating, steamy, wilting."
However, it should not be supposed that the fancy word is always better. Often it is as well to write "Her heart beat" or "It was hot" if that is all it did or all it was. Ages differ in how they like their prose. The nineteenth century liked it rich and smoky. The twentieth has usually preferred it lean and cool. The twentieth century writer, like all writers, is forever seeking the exact word, but he is wary of sounding feverish. He tends to pitch it low, to understate it, to throw it away. He knows that if he gets too colorful, the audience is likely to giggle.
See how this strikes you: "As the rich, golden glow of the sunset died away along the eternal western hills, Angela's limpid blue eyes looked softly and trustingly into Montague's flashing brown ones, and her heart pounded like a drum in time with the joyous song surging in her soul." Some people like that sort of thing, but most modern readers would say, "Good grief," and turn on the television.
COLORED WORDS
Some words we would call not so much colorful as colored -- that is, loaded with associations, good or bad. All words -- except perhaps structure words -- have associations of some sort. We have said that the meaning of a word is the sum of the contexts in which it occurs. When we hear a word, we hear with it an echo of all the situations in which we have heard it before.
In some words, these echoes are obvious and discussible. The word mother, for example, has, for most people, agreeable associations. When you hear mother you probably think of home, safety, love, food, and various other pleasant things. If one writes, "She was like a mother to me," he gets an effect which he would not get in "She was like an aunt to me." The advertiser makes use of the associations of mother by working it in when he talks about his product. The politician works it in when he talks about himself.
So also with such words as home, liberty, fireside, contentment, patriot, tenderness, sacrifice, childlike, manly, bluff, limpid. All of these words are loaded with associations that would be rather hard to indicate in a straightforward definition. There is more than a literal difference between "They sat around the fireside" and "They sat around the stove." They might have been equally warm and happy around the stove, but fireside suggests leisure, grace, quiet tradition, congenial company, and stove does not.
Conversely, some words have bad associations. Mother suggests pleasant things, but mother-in-law does not. Many mothers-in-law are heroically lovable and some mothers drink gin all day and beat their children insensible, but these facts of life are beside the point. The point is that mother sounds good and mother-in-law does not.
Or consider the word intellectual. This would seem to be a complimentary term, but in point of fact it is not, for it has picked up associations of impracticality and ineffectuality and general dopiness. So also such words as liberal, reactionary, Communist, socialist, capitalist, radical, schoolteacher, truck driver; operator, salesman, huckster, speculator. These convey meaning on the literal level, but beyond that -- sometimes, in some places -- they convey contempt on the part of the speaker.
The question of whether to use loaded words or not depends on what is being written. The scientist, the scholar, try to avoid them; for the poet, the advertising writer, the public speaker, they are standard equipment. But every writer should take care that they do not substitute for thought. If you write, "Anyone who thinks that is nothing but a Socialist (or Communist or capitalist)" you have said nothing except that you don't like people who think that, and such remarks are effective only with the most naive readers. It is always a bad mistake to think your readers more naive than they really are.
COLORLESS WORDS
But probably most student writers come to grief not with words that are colorful or those that are colored but with those that have no color at all. A pet example is nice, a word we would find it hard to dispense with in casual conversation but which is no longer capable of adding much to a description. Colorless words are those of such general meaning that in a particular sentence they mean nothing. Slang adjectives like cool ("That's real cool") tend to explode all over the language. They are applied to everything, lose their original force, and quickly die.
Beware also of nouns of very general meaning, like circumstances, cases, instances, aspects, factors, relationships, attitudes, eventualities, etc. In most circumstances you will find that those cases of writing which contain too many instances of words like these will in this and other aspects have factors leading to unsatisfactory relationships with the reader resulting in unfavorable attitudes on his part and perhaps other eventualities, like a grade of "D." Notice also what etc. means. It means "I'd like to make this list longer, but I can't think of any more examples."
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LOL, is someone implementing a filibuster on the blog?
Methinks someone is taking this blog a little personally. Enough with the cutting and pasting already (and thank goodness we can collapse comments). I wish we could figure out a way to ignore certain IP addresses. ;)
Anonymous said...
Methinks someone is taking this blog a little personally. Enough with the cutting and pasting already (and thank goodness we can collapse comments). I wish we could figure out a way to ignore certain IP addresses. ;)
2:18 PM
It's probably Tammie. LOL
My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
Which would make her about a 14.
---------
NOT TRUE. She is more like a 16/18. I am in that weight range and I wear a 16.
Anonymous said...
My guess at Annabella's weight would be between 165-175lbs."
Which would make her about a 14.
---------
NOT TRUE. She is more like a 16/18. I am in that weight range and I wear a 16.
11:24 PM
NOT TRUE! You forgot that not everyone is the same height. Two people who weigh the same and are not the same height will not wear the same size.
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***ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL WHO DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT HERSELF.
SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED OTHERS TO FEEL BAD TOO, SO SHE STARTED A BLOG MAKING FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE GOT SOME THRILLS FROM IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT SOME OF IT WAS FUNNY, SHE STILL HAD AN EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART. THIS BLOG DID NOT FILL THAT EMPTY PLACE INSIDE HER HEART.
WE'RE NOT SURE HOW THIS STORY ENDS, BUT WE HOPE SHE REALIZES THAT PUTTING OTHERS DOWN DOES NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF. WE HOPE THIS LITTLE GIRL WILL PUT HER TIME AND ENERGIES ELSEWHERE TO ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, INSTEAD OF TEARING PEOPLE DOWN.***
THE END
Interesting website with a lot of resources and detailed explanations.
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Nice idea with this site its better than most of the rubbish I come across.
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I really enjoyed looking at your site, I found it very helpful indeed, keep up the good work.
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