Gag
Lets try and keep this one Mormon free. We all know they are cultish freaks. *creepy*
posted by 2 peas in my ass @ 10:56 AM
475 comments
2 Peas In My Ass
Daily Summaries And Opinions On One Of The Wackiest Communities On The Net
475 Comments:
So then what's the topic of the day?
Ya know, I happen to be Mormon & never push my religion down anyone's throat. I started reading your blog b/c I just thought it was funny & I never posted or anything but to call Mormon's cultish freaks is mean! It shows lack of education on your part as to what the LDS religion is all about. I might not be active in the church right now, heck I am pregnant & not married, but I believe my church is 100% true & would never, ever say horrible things about another religion. Everyone is entitled to believe in what they want to. This is your blog, you are entitled to say what you want, but you open yourself to comments when you allow people to comment freely.
Perhaps before you write something, do a little research or actually just abstain from writing about what you don't know.
Yes, you have an opinion, but opinions are like assh*les, everyone has one!
I will even use my real name & not go anonymous!
Meghan,
Why do you think that just because I have a different opinion than you means I am uneducated about Mormons? Only people who agree with the LDS teachings know what they are talking about? What a closed minded thought.
Perhaps you should keep your opinions to yourself when speaking about people you don't know.
I think all overly religious people are freaks and I've never met one that actually practices what they preach.
What about us that DO know because we used to be Mormons?
I haven't seen misinformation about the LDS church posted yet.
Garments, Gods, Prophets, Secret Temple Cermonies are all facts within the church.
Take your Pearls of Wisdom and shove them. Mormonism is based on a false Prophet and legions of sheeple sucked into a cult.
Now let's talk about something interesting.
Tell us more about what happened at the Grump Retreat. I want details!
to call Mormon's cultish freaks is mean! It shows lack of education on your part as to what the LDS religion is all about.
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You should read the previous blog entry. There are plenty of people educated on the Mormon religion telling us about their cult like ways.
I am all for religion freedom, but the LDS culture is just that, a culture. It is very odd.
It is also a power trip. Any religion that urges the members to wear certain undergarments has gone too far.
Do you know how much the LDS church pulls in each year? Run a google search, check for yourself.
Did you know that Utah is number 1 for personal bankrupties in the country?
See, if you want to visit the holy Temple, you MUST tithe. I understand the faithful side of tithing, but it is not Biblical to hold someone's salvation over their head if they don't tithe. The LDS does that. No temple - no celestial afterlife.
If you don't tithe (along with a host of other things) you don't get to visit the temple.
Want to be sealed in the temple, with your spouse? Want your parents and family in attendance? They better be on the 'good' list within the faith. If they aren't LDS, forget about having them there.
The whole sealing is where the husband and wife receive new names too. The husband knows the wife's new name, but she can't know his. This allows him to call her into the afterlife when it is time.
Seldom folks own up to this part as well, but everyone sealed in the temple that day (usually several couples) get the same name. Very original and inspired, huh?
If you ask too many questions, you are told a number of things (always the same things):
1. It is sacred.
2. You don't want to understand.
3. Check Lds.org
4. Would you like to have someone visit your home to explain
5. Read the Book of Mormon
6. Come to church with me
Even after doing those things, if you still challenge them, you are pretty much shunned from the community. You are an outsider.
They are trained to believe that the LDS church is the 'true and only' church in the world.
Oh, the whole endowment ceremony, where you receive your special underwear and so forth? Very stange. Up until very recently, you were touched in personal areas by a person behind a curtain, while you stand in a drape type cloth. After some pressure, this was changed to simple blessings on the forehead.
The undies? They are etched with special symbols - and must be burned when they are no longer suitable for wear. They can only be taken off for the 3 S's - swimming, showering, sexual relations.
The missionary guys (young boys on bikes) are secluded from their family -- only allowed contact on Mother's Day. No other contact is allowed.
So much more...not enough time or room.....
Lauren is the blogger
Don't forget, if you are not a Mormon now, you will be once you die.
You will be baptized by Proxy when you die and bam! Instant reconstituted Mormon you will be!
This is why Mormon are so involved in genelogy, to search out the dead and baptise EVERYONE.
All the oddities aside, they call themselves Christian - but so many of the things they believe and profess go directly against the Bible. They can't (won't) see it.
So you don't agree with mormonism. Fine, that is your perogotive.
What do you get out of being so rude and insulting about it?
Think if the tables were turned.
I can't think of any religion that doesn't have some weird stuff that doesn't make sense.
If it makes some people happy, what business of it is yours? Really?
Of course, it's not nearly as FUN to show a little respect for other people's beliefs. ;p
When the LDS population excludes others in the name of their faith, and don't tell me they don't, they set themselves up for critical observations.
You don't see stuff like this happen with mainstream Christianity. Something to consider?
You don't see stuff like this happen with mainstream Christianity. Something to consider?
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You don't? I have.
I do think there is a difference between critical observation and a lot of the stuff being said here.
When Mormons baptise me in thier faith after I am dead, without my permission it bothers me to no end.
I am not a Mormon and I don't want be converted after death.
There are LDS people that exclude others. I totally agree with you.
However, that is not true in MY case, or that of many people I know.
It's just frustrating to be lumped into that group.
I want to know about the special hand grasp and green aprons.
I still haven't seen anyone say that these things aren't true of the mormon faith. All of it is factually accurate.
People are free to say they think believing in Sun People and the Grant-A-Planet program is a little too much like riding the crazy train.
When Mormons baptise me in thier faith after I am dead, without my permission it bothers me to no end.
I am not a Mormon and I don't want be converted after death.
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I understand this. A large part of the problem is what mormons believe about baptism and what other religions believe.
Mormons don't believe that just the act of baptising someone when they die "makes" them a mormon. They believe that that person has a choice whether or not to accept it.
Other religions believe that just the act alone is enough to make you *insert religion here.* Obviously, any religion that practices infant baptism believes this, since infants can't choose.
I don't see a way around that very broad chasm in belief.
I still love many things about my religion, but I understand your statement.
Written by an anonymous LDS woman:
It's been over 17 years since I went to the temple for my endowment in 1989. I was 20 years-old and went through the temple the day before I got married. It was the Washington, D.C. temple.
I remember not knowing much about what the endowment was. I knew I would make covenants with God, and I had been told about the temple garments. My bishop's wife took me to purchase my first garments at the store, and told me to bring them, unopened, to the temple in a bag. I was mostly excited about getting married, and nervous about having sex, and not overly concerned with the temple rituals. I just wanted to get it over with so I could get married the next day.
It was my fiancé’s first time to the temple as well. He was a one-year convert. I remember the temple was so beautiful: huge and white and a beautiful pool outside. The leaves were turning and the sky was blue. When I got inside I was nervous. It was a big place. Funny, I don't even remember who all came with me. I think a lady from my ward came to sort of guide me through it.
First I went into the locker room and was asked to take off all my clothes and put a big white sheet over my head. It was open on the sides, and I was cold, and very self-conscious. I thought, gee, what is this?
Then they took me into a little booth thing and sat me on a cold stool. The old lady whispered the blessing in my ear. I was dizzy from nervousness, and was really surprised when she forgave my sins and said I was "clean every whit." Wow, I had no idea that happened again after baptism! And I didn't know women could forgive sins. It was all mind-boggling. I didn't like it when she ran her hands over my body with oil and water. It felt strange and immodest to me. But I accepted it as God's will. Soon she had my garments in her hands. She held open the bottoms for me to step into. It was so weird, having an old woman hold my underwear and pull them up for me. I felt... stupid. Childish. Ridiculous. I don't even remember how she got the tops on me.
(Note: The above Washing and Anointing gospel ordinance was significantly changed in January 2005 - see here for details.)
Somewhere along the line, after I got out of the booth I think, and changed into a white temple dress (and was grateful for the coverage), someone pinned some little papers onto me. One said OWN ENDOWMENT and another said my name. I had the little "packet" cloth pouch thing with all of the robes and veil and apron folded up inside and I felt odd carrying it. All the stuff was rented at the temple; I only had my own garments. An old lady took me aside and gave me a secret "new name" and I was a nervous wreck that I would forget it, and asked her to repeat it. It was Hagar. What an ugly name. I hated it. And I was angry at its implications: Abraham's second wife that he cast off, the one who was not the wife of his heart. I was becoming a second wife to my husband, who had been married before...was this a sign?
I don't remember much else about how I got to the endowment room. I don't remember a lot except how weird my fiancée looked in that hat, and why was it tied to his shoulder? I hated getting out the robes and trying to get them on in time. There were so many people. I had someone helping me tie my robes and stuff but it was awkward. The movie was ok, but trying to get all the handshakes and passwords right was nerve wracking. Why did I have to take off my slippers and put them back on again when we changed the robes from left to right shoulder? I was so confused, nothing made sense, but I tried to just get through it. Everyone was smiling and happy, and I was flushed and embarrassed.
Then of course, they had the “true order of prayer.” And of course, being my own endowment I was dragged up there with my fiancée to chant “Pay Lay Ale” with a veil over my face. I felt so strange. I couldn't even think.
And I also remember, all the many times I was told to "bow your head and say yes." I felt slapped into submission. Obey your husband. Yes. (It was the pre-1990 endowment) The promises of never revealing, and the suffering my life to be taken; the throat slitting and disemboweling gestures. I think I went mind-numb. It was unthinkable, so I didn't think.
Finally we were at the veil. I couldn't remember a single thing. The old lady told me all the answers. I shoved my inner knee against my fiancé’s, I pressed my chest to his and felt his breath on my ear through the veil, his arm on my back, my breast touching him. After I said the magic words and gave the secret handshakes, my fiancé, speaking for the Lord from the other side of the veil, said "Let her enter." No "welcome home" no "I love you my daughter." Just a "Let her enter."
What the heck was it with the mallets hanging on poles? Why did they knock 3 times and God asks what is wanted? Isn't God omniscient?
Finally, I was in the celestial room with my fiancé and my ward members who attended. I was exhausted. It was white and whiter. I just wanted to go home.
I went to the dressing room and saw myself in a full-length mirror in robes, veil and green apron. I couldn't bear to look. I just had to get changed and forget it ever happened, and look forward to getting married the next day.
I was so numbed by the experience that although my husband pleaded, I refused (with excuses) to go back for another endowment session for 5 months. When I did go back, the death oaths were gone. A lot of the endowment had changed. No more death-oaths or Protestant minister serving Satan. And they’d changed the chant “Pay Lay Ale” to “Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.” It was easier to tolerate.
But I won't ever forget that first time.
The day after I was endowed, I was sealed to my husband in the Washington DC temple. I had pretty much sufficiently blocked out the initiatory and endowment ceremony from the previous day. I just wanted to get married.
Since I was a convert, I had no Mormon relatives. To say they were hurt that they were not invited to my wedding would be a gross understatement. My Catholic aunts and cousins asked me why they weren't "good enough" to go inside the temple. They wanted to know how their presence would defile God's house. I was immature and unconcerned and just told them they didn't know enough to understand the temple ceremony. Ugh. My mother wouldn’t have come to my wedding anyway, but my father... oh it still haunts me to this day, the pain it must have caused him to miss my wedding. His only child, his little girl, got married and he wasn't there. He wasn't even invited. And he died a month later. It still breaks my heart. I know he adored me.
My husband was a convert, too, so he had no Mormon relatives either. His brothers and sisters were quite unhappy. He had been married before, and they had been part of the big fancy church wedding. I still think to this day that one reason they never warmed up to me or got close to me was because they were uninvited from our wedding. My husband's parents, poor folks, came to the temple grounds and waited outside in the November chill. My husband had children from his first marriage, but there was no consent for them to be sealed to us, so they, too, waited outside in the cold while their father and I got married, practically alone, surrounded by a few token ward members I barely knew.
I had purchased a beautiful, white lacy beaded wedding gown. It was very long and I carried the train over my arm. When I went into the bride's room, I didn't have my sisters or my mother or my best friends there to help me. Some old temple matron helped me with my dress and my hair and my veil. It was very quiet, and I was very lonely. It didn't feel at all like a celebration, but maybe I felt special or sacred, that I was sacrificing a big wedding for what mattered: an eternal family. I had to wear the endowment robes, sash, and green apron over my dress. I felt silly and I looked silly. I didn't look like any bride I had ever seen or the ones in the magazines. There weren't any flowers. I didn't even have a maid of honor.
Finally I got into the sealing room. It was small and the walls were lined with chairs. Ward members were sitting there but no family, no friends. There was a huge chandelier hanging over an altar in the center of the little room. There was my fiancé, in his green apron, slippers, and baker's cap tied to his shoulder. This was not what I had envisioned! We were instructed to kneel across from each other at this altar, which was cushioned for our knees. I was so nervous. Everyone was so excited because the temple president had "popped in" and offered to marry us. We were supposed to be awestruck or something, having this stranger in high places marry us, I guess.
As we knelt there at the altar, the temple president gave a little speech, about our worthiness. He made some comments about chastity that made me blush. He talked about how special it was, and how blessed we would be, and the babies we would have. He told us to grip each other across the altar in the “Patriarchal Grip” – a secret handshake I had learned the day before that I needed to know in order to enter heaven.
Then he did the ceremony. All we had to say was, Yes. Then we were married, that was it. Kneeling in green aprons and a baker's cap, gripping each other in a weird handshake, saying yes, and the wedding was over. We stood up, he gave me a quick kiss. Then we quickly stuck the rings on each other's hands, as the rings were not part of the ceremony. The temple sealer told us to look into the mirrors and see eternity. We stood side by side, holding hands, and peered into the wall of mirrors. I didn't see eternity. I saw hundreds on hundred of images of myself and my new husband in green aprons and a baker's cap. I looked away.
Now that it was over, I went back to the dressing room and took off the temple garb. Then we went outside to have some pictures taken in front of the temple. His parents and the kids were waiting outside in the cold. They took a few snapshots of us by the fountain, and in the Visitor’s Center by the big statue of Jesus. Then we went back inside and changed into regular church clothes.
I cannot believe I accepted this as a "wedding." We went to my husband's aunt's home for lunch and cake, and his family was there to congratulate us. It was no big deal. Then we went on our honeymoon.
When we came back we did have a "reception" at our home, with a real wedding cake and a meat and cheese tray, and lots of people from the ward came and brought gifts. My husband and I dressed in a tux and the wedding dress and stood there letting people walk through and shake our hands. My husband's parents and sister came. One of my aunts and some cousins came. My father came. It was heartbreaking. I still hurt thinking I excluded him like that, and I only saw him one more time before he died.
Being married in the temple is not the wonderful, sweet, spiritual experience the church makes it out to be. It is a weak excuse for a wedding and it is the first step in alienating the new couple from all their non-Mormon family and friends.
No one should have to go through this stuff without knowing ahead of time what they are "choosing" to do
People are free to say they think believing in Sun People and the Grant-A-Planet program is a little too much like riding the crazy train.
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You're free to say whatever you want.
For the record, I don't believe in sun people. I have no idea what this is referring to--I assume probably something that some early church leader said.
I don't believe that nor have I ever been taught that.
As for "grant a planet," you are referring to the belief that we can become like our Heavenly Father. I do believe that. I think it's a joyful thing.
You don't have to agree with me, but just because you don't doesn't make me "crazy." I don't think YOU are crazy because it seems weird to you.
Anonymous said...
I think all overly religious people are freaks and I've never met one that actually practices what they preach.
11:17 AM
HALLELUJAH! The Baptists are just as bad as the Mormons imo.
Some distant, distant cousin (who'd never met them) baptized my MIL's parents and several other relatives after they died. My MIL was so hurt and angry. SHE lived with them, ACTUALLY KNEW them in life and knew that wasn't what they wanted.
The false piety (sp?) is what burns my ass about the Mo's.
People in Utah that are not Mormons call them Mo's or Momo's. There is a hilarious play (Saturday's Voyeur) put on every year that parody's Utah and typically the Mormons . A few years back there was a song called "Homo's and Momo's are Nono's". It was hysterical.
You know they believe homosexuality is a mental disorder. You can change if you really want to. Anyone who admits to being gay is given intense mental couseling.
The people living on the Sun comes from Joseph Smith himself.
It was one of his prophecies. You aren't taught it anymore because people now know how foolish that prophecy is. It's been buried for modern times.
But in my Grandmother's time, it was taught and accepted.
If he is guilty of one false prophecy how can you possibly follow him as a prophet? It makes no sense.
If he is guilty of one false prophecy how can you possibly follow him as a prophet? It makes no sense.
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I believe in the Book of Mormon as an additional testiment of Jesus Christ. That is the most important facet of my religion to me.
Only one perfect person walked the earth, and that was Christ.
I believe that Joseph translated the BOM but was also fallible like everyone else and that he made mistakes.
I understand where you are coming from.
I hope you understand where I am coming from. I do not remain in my religion "blindly" like a sheep with no independant thought.
It is something I have prayed and studied and researched (yes, even reading things from the infamous "exmormon.org" among others.)
There are things that bug me, I admit it.
But the way I feel about some of the major points in our beliefs is enough for me to believe that this is where I will be the happiest.
As for "grant a planet," you are referring to the belief that we can become like our Heavenly Father. I do believe that. I think it's a joyful thing.
No it's an utterly disrespectful insult to God. You honestly think that by paying your way into Temple and going through ceremonies ripped off of Freemasons that you will become a Goddess?
How insulting and sad.
As a plain Jane Christian, I am always sad to see the stress that so many the LDS ladies appear to tie into church. Church should not cause grief, stress, anxiety and frustration. Quite the opposite really.
How insulting and sad.
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I'm sorry you find that insulting, but I'm not sure how my personal beliefs affect you in any way.
If I'm wrong, then nothing I believe will have any effect on you-including baptisms for the dead. So why is it so important for you to mock and insult me?
The LDS believe they will become a god? Honestly? What about those pesky 10 Commandments? I do believe God speaks against such things, no
Course, they believe there is a Mrs. God up there too, right?
I am always sad to see the stress that so many the LDS ladies appear to tie into church. Church should not cause grief, stress, anxiety and frustration.
I have noticed this too. They are terrified they will get called to do something they don't want to do. No wonder Utah takes more anti-depressants than any other state.
If your life situation is stressful and depressing, change your situation. Don't try to medicate how you feel about it.
As a plain Jane Christian, I am always sad to see the stress that so many the LDS ladies appear to tie into church. Church should not cause grief, stress, anxiety and frustration. Quite the opposite really.
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This is a common perception.
I can only say that I don't feel that way, and in my observations the situation has improved.
Why do I care? Because it is sad and frustrating to see so many people fall prey to this business.
Yes. I truly believe the LDS faith is one built on pure business. Kind of like the whole pyramid scheme that so many LDS fall into as well. Hmmm....
You know what I don't get? When you ask questions, you are automatically told to visit Lds.org
Am I to honestly believe that that site is the ONLY place in the world that gives out factual information for the church?
Everyone else is lying? What purpose does that serve?
So why is it so important for you to mock and insult me?
Because you are being a fool and tramping on dangerous ground.
Someone needs to show you the truth. I guess it's my turn.
But hey, if you want to go on thinking you are going to be an eternally pregnant goddess populating a planet of your very own, go right ahead.
I will go on telling the truth about the Mormon church until the day I die. I escaped from the Church and I feel that it's very important to tell the truth about it.
The church is a dangerous cult and it's followers are being duped into making rich men richer and destroying their lives, both mortal and immortal.
Why do I care? Because it is sad and frustrating to see so many people fall prey to this business.
Yes. I truly believe the LDS faith is one built on pure business. Kind of like the whole pyramid scheme that so many LDS fall into as well. Hmmm....
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Well, all I can say then is if you truly are concerned about people in this church, you aren't going to convince or attract them by the kind of nastiness I have seen in this and the other thread.
If you REALLY want to help people, you show them love and compassion. Maybe some will come to agree with you. and maybe some won't.
But bashing and name calling only makes people defensive and that much less likely to listen to anything you have to say.
---as to the reference about LDS.org
People refer you to that because it's where you can find the official church statements about LDS beliefs. These coincide with things that we are taught.
They do NOT, of course, go into cultural mormonism--which is what causes some people to leave the church. I almost left once as well because of the behavior of some people. It happens. There are as many jerks an idiots in the mormon church as there are in any demographic.
I can only say again that it works for me. I'm sorry if you think that's sad or makes me a sheep. It's what I am at most peace with in my heart.
Church should not cause grief, stress, anxiety and frustration. Quite the opposite really.
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ITA. The LDS women flat out dread getting their "new callings" or whatever.
But hey, if you want to go on thinking you are going to be an eternally pregnant goddess populating a planet of your very own, go right ahead.
I will go on telling the truth about the Mormon church until the day I die. I escaped from the Church and I feel that it's very important to tell the truth about it.
The church is a dangerous cult and it's followers are being duped into making rich men richer and destroying their lives, both mortal and immortal.
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You have no interest in helping me. If you did, you wouldn't constantly insult and mock me with your "truth."
If your motives were truly concern for those people who were duped, you wouldn't shout in their faces that they are "idiots."
What is your motive, really?
Yeh, try showinf compassion and neighborly respect to LDS folks. It won't get you far. I've had LDS neighbors in the past. If I don't follow their lead, I am ignored or pitied. Their children were told to stay away from my children. Nevermind that we were also upstanding citizens within the community who just happened to go to the Lutheran church down the street. I am not LDS. I am viewed as apostate or lost.
ITA. The LDS women flat out dread getting their "new callings" or whatever.
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Maybe some do. Again you are lumping everyone together.
Oh please - the whole calling thing is done by some man who sits at a desk all day. Inspired my butt.
Oh, the whole endowment ceremony, where you receive your special underwear and so forth? Very stange. Up until very recently, you were touched in personal areas by a person behind a curtain, while you stand in a drape type cloth. After some pressure, this was changed to simple blessings on the forehead.
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Share more about this!
Yeh, try showinf compassion and neighborly respect to LDS folks. It won't get you far. I've had LDS neighbors in the past. If I don't follow their lead, I am ignored or pitied. Their children were told to stay away from my children. Nevermind that we were also upstanding citizens within the community who just happened to go to the Lutheran church down the street. I am not LDS. I am viewed as apostate or lost.
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I agree this happens. I've seen it.
I just think it's a result of the culture and not anything that is "proscribed" in the gospel.
LDS people aren't perfect. Lord knows some think they are though.
The things you describe have also happened to other people of other faiths who leave their church.
For what it's worth (though I doubt you'll think its much) I don't feel that way.
I believe God loves us and knows us individually and will judge us by our hearts and take into account our situations.
I don't know what will happen when I die. Maybe I'm wrong in what I believe. But I do believe with ALL my heart that I am trying to be the best person I can, that I believe in Christ and his atonement, and if my specific church is wrong, God will judge me on those things, and I'll be ok.
Don't forget, if you are not a Mormon now, you will be once you die.
You will be baptized by Proxy when you die and bam! Instant reconstituted Mormon you will be!
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Then why bother tithing, going to temple, etc.
while you stand in a drape type cloth.
before they had the drape, the person was totally nude. Then they gave them the sheet-like thing and rubbed them under it but they were naked underneath. now it's just an annoiting ritual.
I can't think of any religion that doesn't have some weird stuff that doesn't make sense.
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No Catholics and Protestants don't have any weird stuff. Just cults like LDS, Jehovah Witness and Scientology.
Oh please - the whole calling thing is done by some man who sits at a desk all day. Inspired my butt.
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To tell you the honest truth, I don't believe that ALL callings are inspired. I think some just occur to fill a need. (Like the nursery for instance.)
I have had, however, instances in my personal life where the job I was doing taught me something about myself that I wouldn't have learned otherwise. I truly believe that I was supposed to be there, doing that calling to learn those things.
Mormons don't believe that just the act of baptising someone when they die "makes" them a mormon. They believe that that person has a choice whether or not to accept it.
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How can a dead person accept it?
Honey, the "truth" is that your religion is bullshit ripped off from the Masons. My husband is a Mason. We did quite a bit of research on the Freemasons before he joined to make sure THEY weren't some kind of cult. The similarities to Mormon rituals are stunning. It's incredible this religion has such a hold on some many people when it was just founded by an ex-Mason who ripped off all their ceremonies.
I agree. In the end, what you believe will be sorted out between God and you. I get that.
I just wish (LDS) people would understand what church can really be, here in this life. Everything I have learned about the LDS faith is covered in shame, guilt and power. I attended a LDS service once, many years ago. That wasn't church. That was a business meeting!
Church should be an exciting time with fellow believers, embracing the Word and growing in the community.
Would someone PLEASE slap StephStanley upside the HEAD??
http://www.twopeasinabucket.com/mb.asp?cmd=display&thread_id=1882851
I guess this his how she finds a way to pat herself on the back for being mother of the year and taking an additional child on vacation.
Steph, you are still a very innappropriate parent. I would NEVER EVER allow my child to go with you! NO WAY JOSE!
Way to start a discussion about Mormonism blogger.
(Note: The above Washing and Anointing gospel ordinance was significantly changed in January 2005 - see here for details.)
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How many converts do you bet said "oh hell no" during this so they had to change! LMAO
Steph needs to yank that damn ring out of her lip and be a mother to those poor boys!
yawn
What kind of mother lets her 6 year old go away for a week?
I wouldn't!
boring
What kind of mother lets her 6 year old go away for a week?
I wouldn't!
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The kind of parent that associates with the likes of StephStanley........Can we say TRAILER TRASH!!
Lauren, please make a new entry and don't talk about Mormon crap!
How can a dead person accept it?
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We believe a person's spirit exists after his body dies, it is the spirit that has the choice.
Church should be an exciting time with fellow believers, embracing the Word and growing in the community.
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For me, it is. I "get" that for others it isn't.
Way to start a discussion about Mormonism blogger.
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LOL! As opposed to the free for all that was here before?
You don't have to agree. I'm just politely requesting (with full knowledge that you can post what you want to...LOL) that people take time to consider how some of the over-the-top nasty comments come across. I love discussions--as a way to learn how we are percieved and how others believe.
It's just the other stuff that I think is a waste of space.
People in Utah that are not Mormons call them Mo's or Momo's.
haha I'll start calling them that!
Fascinating story about the temple marriage, TFS!
2 peas needs an LDS board.
I live in Mormon land, but I am not Mormon. The Mormon kids around here are called Mobots.
I believe in the Book of Mormon as an additional testiment of Jesus Christ. That is the most important facet of my religion to me.
_______
Don't you spend most of your time reading the BOM with your 'sisters'?
I think part of the problem is that the Utah LDS population lives in a serious bubble. Everything is owned by the church. Banks, stores, newspapers, etc.
They hear what they are supposed to hear, nothing more.
I honestly don't know how a non-LDS person lives in Utah. It must be terribly difficult.
2 peas needs an LDS board.
-----------------
I don't think they do. I DO think that the constant LDS threads are divisive and annoying. I think it would be nice if those gals who do that all the time realized how it makes other people feel.
And I am LDS.
I feel sorry for Mormons. I hope one day they can all see their cult for what it is and break free. These blog entries should be very informative for them.
I am always sad to see the stress that so many the LDS ladies appear to tie into church. Church should not cause grief, stress, anxiety and frustration.
I have noticed this too. They are terrified they will get called to do something they don't want to do. No wonder Utah takes more anti-depressants than any other state.
***
I've noticed this whenever I see a thread with a pea worried she will get a calling. Just say no!
"Why do I care? Because it is sad and frustrating to see so many people fall prey to this business.
Yes. I truly believe the LDS faith is one built on pure business. Kind of like the whole pyramid scheme that so many LDS fall into as well. Hmmm...."
I believe this as well. It may be a harmless cult, but still a mind controlling cult nonetheless. Okay would you be happier if I called it a business instead of a cult? I see it as one and the same, but can use the word business instead so as not to insult you. But it is not a religion.
I don't think they do. I DO think that the constant LDS threads are divisive and annoying. I think it would be nice if those gals who do that all the time realized how it makes other people feel.
And I am LDS.
----------
Yeah, it's the constant threads that make me think they need their own board. When people got tired of all the "toots" the pub was created.
No one who isn't LDS cares, and those who actually read them are probably laughing.
So why is it so important for you to mock and insult me?
Because you are being a fool and tramping on dangerous ground.
Someone needs to show you the truth. I guess it's my turn.
-----
ITA If your church is the only one being bashed here day in and day out, it's time to look more closely at it and question why.
Do the LDS folks believe something big and mighty is going to happen in Missouri?
Do the LDS folks believe something big and mighty is going to happen in Missouri?
---------
Brother Elvis is appearing in Branson?
I think part of the problem is that the Utah LDS population lives in a serious bubble. Everything is owned by the church. Banks, stores, newspapers, etc.
They hear what they are supposed to hear, nothing more.
I honestly don't know how a non-LDS person lives in Utah. It must be terribly difficult.
----------------
In some areas it is.
Where I live, in metropolitan SL, it's not a huge deal. In some of the outlying areas, like Tooele or Sandy, it has been a problem for some people.
As far as the news, etc goes...
There are 2 major newspapers. One owned by the church and one not that has no love for the mormons.
There are 7 local stations, 2 of which are owned by the church and one of those 2 is a pbs station. Dont' forget Utah is not so backwards that we don't have cable. ;)
One bank and one hospital were formerly owned by the lds church, but they have been sold.
The mayor of SLC (state capital) is a democrat (gasp) and a former mormon.
There are gay people in our state legistature. (yes, this is a public fact.)
So, while there are issues being a minority in ANY predominant group, it's not as closed off and sheltered as you insinuate.
I will go on telling the truth about the Mormon church until the day I die. I escaped from the Church and I feel that it's very important to tell the truth about it.
The church is a dangerous cult and it's followers are being duped into making rich men richer and destroying their lives, both mortal and immortal.
_________
This person isn't being nasty, she is telling the truth as someone who has escaped from the temple.
Why does the LDS church hate the Catholic church? If the LDS can have a living prophet running their system, can't the Catholic church have a Pope?
ITA If your church is the only one being bashed here day in and day out, it's time to look more closely at it and question why.
-------------------
From my observation, there are a handful of people here who take any opportunity to "bash" mormons...even bringing "mormons are a cult" into completely unrelated conversations. Maybe I'm wrong, but even if it were 10 people, that still is a small minority of peas. The anonymity of this blog gives those who really want to make this a into fight a great forum. How many of them are there really? There is no way to tell.
I think the LDS threads are another significant factor. If I was seeing threads like that constantly from another religion, I'd probably find it annoying too.
There ARE ex-catholic and ex-protestant sites on the web where you can find many unhappy people discussing the flaws in their respective religions. I don't think for people who choose those religions that the fact those sites exist makes their beliefs any less valid.
The fact that it is constantly being hashed here (by how many people? I don't know) isn't a significant factor in how I choose to worship God.
This person isn't being nasty, she is telling the truth as someone who has escaped from the temple.
--------------------
She's telling the truth as she sees it. She's entitled to that.
Calling me crazy or a sheep or a mobot doesn't exactly lead itself to friendly conversation. ;)
Why does the LDS church hate the Catholic church? If the LDS can have a living prophet running their system, can't the Catholic church have a Pope?
------------------
If you're talking about speculation that the Catholic church is the "great and abominable church" referred to in the BOM, it's just that. Someone's speculation. It's not part of church doctrine or any teachings that I have ever heard.
I have no hate for Catholics. In fact, I honestly believe the Pope is a man of God.
For those that have studied Mormonisn, their temple designs hold a lot of story. For instance, the Saturn stones on the SLC temple are located directly below the parapet on each side of the six towers. They represent Kolob, the dwelling place of God.
Anonymous said...
ITA. The LDS women flat out dread getting their "new callings" or whatever.
------------------
Maybe some do. Again you are lumping everyone together.
__________
No this is what every LDS pea has complained about on the board.
Why does the LDS church hate the Catholic church? If the LDS can have a living prophet running their system, can't the Catholic church have a Pope?
------------------
If you're talking about speculation that the Catholic church is the "great and abominable church" referred to in the BOM, it's just that. Someone's speculation. It's not part of church doctrine or any teachings that I have ever heard.
---------
So, you follow the Book of Mormon, which outright says the above about Catholics, but since the bishop doesn't come out and say it in the meetinghouse, you are okay with it?
You have no interest in helping me. If you did, you wouldn't constantly insult and mock me with your "truth."
If your motives were truly concern for those people who were duped, you wouldn't shout in their faces that they are "idiots."
What is your motive, really?
You have plenty of Christians that will politely tip toe and try to get you to see your church is a cult.
It didn't work for me. I finally got the courage to leave the church when someone confronted me with these truths, just as I am doing for you.
My true motive is to help you see the truth. Some need gentle prodding and some need someone to be strong and all up in your face.
Today I am being all up in your face. Some will see the message and some won't. Some need gentleness and some need to be fought for like a mother bear defending her cubs.
Today I am your mother bear. I know you don't like it, but if I can just get you to start doubting, then there is hope.
oh man, i am tired of mormom/lds stuff. let's bash bep again. she's a fun and easy target!
while you stand in a drape type cloth.
before they had the drape, the person was totally nude. Then they gave them the sheet-like thing and rubbed them under it but they were naked underneath. now it's just an annoiting ritual.
----------
How many people saw you naked?
Oh please - the whole calling thing is done by some man who sits at a desk all day. Inspired my butt.
---------------
To tell you the honest truth, I don't believe that ALL callings are inspired. I think some just occur to fill a need. (Like the nursery for instance.)
________________
ITA
My husband is a Mason. We did quite a bit of research on the Freemasons before he joined to make sure THEY weren't some kind of cult.
------
Why did he join? What exactly do they do?
I attended a LDS service once, many years ago. That wasn't church. That was a business meeting!
***
They don't pick a scripture from the Christian bible and talk about how to apply it to your likfe? What exactly do they do?
Back to the garments, women have to wear their bra OVER the t-shirt like garment? You don't find that strange?
So, you follow the Book of Mormon, which outright says the above about Catholics, but since the bishop doesn't come out and say it in the meetinghouse, you are okay with it?
---------------
It doesn't say that in the Book of Mormon. It mentions a "great and abominable" church, but does not name the church. I have heard some people speculate what that means. I was responding specifically to the fact that it had been asked about re:catholicism on 2 peas.
Today I am your mother bear. I know you don't like it, but if I can just get you to start doubting, then there is hope.
---------------------
I've doubted. I've been there ;) I've read the weird stuff...the stuff no one wants to talk about. I've decided, that for me, there are certain parts of my beliefs that matter more to me than those things.
After much prayer and study, I have decided that this is where I'd like to be.
I am glad that you have found something that makes you happy and helps you feel peace.
What kind of mother lets her 6 year old go away for a week?
________
The kind that doesn't normally take a vacation and thinks it would be fun for her kid to go to the beach.
They don't pick a scripture from the Christian bible and talk about how to apply it to your likfe? What exactly do they do?
----------------
Not sure what the other poster witnessed. Doesn't sound much like what happens when I go to church though.
We have members of the congregation that give talks on gospel subjects. Some are from the bible, some are from the book of mormon. We have sacrament. We sing. We say prayers.
I know alot of people find it strange that congregation members speak from the pulpit. I think the opportunity allows me to study and think about things that I might not have focused on before hand.
I like it. :)
I live in Mormon land, but I am not Mormon. The Mormon kids around here are called Mobots.
_______
What's it like living there? Do Mormons associate with non-Mormons. How's Starbucks doing?
2 peas needs an LDS board.
------
ITA
I have known a few ex-Mormons in my time. For them, leaving the church meant leaving behind everything they knew and loved, in some cases, even family.
The Mormon culture is strong and oppressive. Getting out is not easy. There is so much fear.
Back to the garments, women have to wear their bra OVER the t-shirt like garment? You don't find that strange?
---------------------
I'm used to it so it doesn't feel strange to me.
Now, why some one would want to wear butt floss g-strings) for underwear is something I find strange..... ;)
Shall we discuss YOUR underwear?
Is Starbucks even allowed in Utah?
No one who isn't LDS cares, and those who actually read them are probably laughing.
-------
And they wonder why they're talked about so much on this blog. Stop posting to the board and we'll forget about what a joke your religion is.
What's it like living there? Do Mormons associate with non-Mormons. How's Starbucks doing?
------------------
I have several non mormon friends and acquaintances. They don't mind associating with me, and I have no problem associating with them. ;)
Starbucks is just fine. I personally like the caramel apple cider.
What makes these undergarments "sacred?"
Do you really need to wear material against your skin to make you remember God?
Is it true that many LDS folks believe the garments hold special protection against evil and physical hurt?
There are 2 major newspapers. One owned by the church and one not that has no love for the mormons.
------
What does that newspaper say?
Anonymous said...
I live in Mormon land, but I am not Mormon. The Mormon kids around here are called Mobots.
12:53 PM
PIMP LMAO I'm going to start using that
No need to call the children names. They don't get a say in all of this, right?
I have known a few ex-Mormons in my time. For them, leaving the church meant leaving behind everything they knew and loved, in some cases, even family.
The Mormon culture is strong and oppressive. Getting out is not easy. There is so much fear.
--------------------------
I think leaving any religion is hard, especially when family and friends are involved. That is why there are "recovery" sites for many many religions on the internet.
Although, I didn't find one for buddhists. Maybe that is the way to go. ;)
Back to the garments, women have to wear their bra OVER the t-shirt like garment? You don't find that strange?
-------
Are you serious?
OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"I know alot of people find it strange that congregation members speak from the pulpit. I think the opportunity allows me to study and think about things that I might not have focused on before hand."
Wait a minute, you mean your priest doesn't do all the talking?
Pay, Pray, Obey
the LDS chant
What makes these undergarments "sacred?"
Do you really need to wear material against your skin to make you remember God?
Is it true that many LDS folks believe the garments hold special protection against evil and physical hurt?
----------------------
They are a physical reminder of the promises we have made with God to keep his commandments.
I have heard stories from people I know who have had experiences where they where physically injured *except* for areas covered by their garments. These are people I know and I believe them. I did NOT ask to see them naked to prove it. ;P
I understand the curiosity, but really it's weird that you have so much interest in my underwear.
HOMOS AND MOMOS ARE NONOS
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH ROFL :D
Wait a minute, you mean your priest doesn't do all the talking?
--------------------
No, he doesn't
Which is one of the reasons that we are always encouraged to pray about what we have heard, whether from an apostle or a neighbor, to see if it feels right.
No, it is wierd that a bunch of men in your church dictate that you wear certain underwear.
LDS Peas - go back to where you came from. We don't care this much about your fucked up cult religion!
Anonymous said...
Pay, Pray, Obey
the LDS chant
1:32 PM
LMAO
No, it is wierd that a bunch of men in your church dictate that you wear certain underwear.
Exactly! LOL
I wonder if there's even a Victoria's Secret in Utah.
I would never admit this publically because I'm embarrassed by this. But sometimes I think LDS is a great religion because of all the social clubs they have ,wards, meetings, house visits, etc. But then when I read into what their religion really is, I realize it is a cult and all the social clubs is part of keeping people locked in.
OKAY ENOUGH MORMON TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------------
Yeah, it's is a little tiring.
I just feel like it's nice to have both perspectives.
Anonymous said...
No, it is wierd that a bunch of men in your church dictate that you wear certain underwear.
1:34 PM
They leaders DICTATE every aspect of life. Mormons' lives revolve around their religion.
This is the first time since starting to read this blog that I've actually skipped over a good portion of posts. Other than the bit about trashstanley, there's nothing exciting here..
--------------
Exactly! LOL
I wonder if there's even a Victoria's Secret in Utah.
--------------
Maybe they call it Joseph's Secret. ;)
You will be expected to fulfill any work assignment given to you. These assignments may be teaching, record keeping, janitorial work, cannery or farm work, helping in the Sunday nursery - any job that needs to be done. Each task you perform successfully will make you eligible for others, with more responsibility and more demands upon your time. The members who perform these jobs, even those involving sensitive pastoral counseling, receive no formal training whatsoever (there is no paid, trained clergy). You will be told that God has called you to your assignments. Many Mormons find much of their spare time taken up with church work, trying to fulfill the numerous assignments that have been given them.
Mormon temples are quite different, both in design and use, from the buildings where Mormon congregations hold their weekly worship services. On Sundays Mormons gather for meetings, sermons and simple worship in the local "chapel" or "meeting house" or "ward house" or "church" (these terms are used interchangeably by most Mormons). Mormons go to the temple only on weekdays, never on Sunday - the temples are closed on Sundays. Some Mormons go to the temple quite regularly; others rarely, since for many Mormons the nearest temple may be hundreds of miles from their home. Temples are closed to the public and also to Mormons who do not qualify as sufficiently "worthy." The rituals in the temples - especially the "endowment" - are considered so sacred that Mormons are forbidden to discuss them outside the temple itself.
The rituals (Mormons call them "ordinances") performed in the temple are:
- Baptism for the dead
- Endowment for the dead and the living
- Sealings for the dead and the living
- Sealing of husband and wife (marriage)
- Sealing of children to parents
- Second Anointing (or Second Endowment)
Ordinances are performed for the dead in the belief that those who have died without going through the rituals necessary for salvation and exaltation must still have the opportunity to have these ordinances performed. Therefore, a living Mormon will go to the temple and go through the rituals as a proxy for a dead person, taking the name of that person temporarily. This "work for the dead" probably consititutes 95% of the ceremonies performed in the temples. This is the reason for the extensive genealogy work done by Mormons, since living Mormons are told that they are the ones primarily responsible for seeing to it that all their own ancestors "have their temple work done."
Whenever a new Mormon temple is finished, it is always opened to the public for a few weeks for inspection before it is dedicated. This is the only opportunity that a non-Mormon (or an unworthy Mormon) will have to see the inside of a Mormon temple. If there should be a new temple built in your area, you might consider taking the pre-dedication tour. You will not see any of the rituals performed, but you will have a chance to see the building and its furnishings.
Mormons who wish to participate in any of the temple rituals must first request an interview with the bishop of their local ward (that is, the pastor of their local Mormon congregation), who will examine them individually as to their religious beliefs, their loyalty to the church leaders, their abstinence from forbidden things (alcohol, tobacco, coffee, tea), their sexual morality, and the extent of their financial contributions to the church. If the bishop determines from this examination that they are sufficiently worthy, he will issue them a "recommend," that is, a pass to the temple, valid for two years. (Until 2002 the recommend was valid for only one year.) The member must then take the recommend to the stake president (the church officer who oversees several local wards), who will conduct a similar interview before countersigning the recommend. Many Mormons always carry their recommend, which is the size of a credit card, in their purse or wallet.
Upon arrival at the temple, a temple worker at the reception desk examines the recommend and grants admission. Those who do not own their own temple clothing may rent the necessary clothing items for a small fee. Most Mormons who regularly attend the temple own their own set of temple clothing and bring it in a small suitcase or bag.
THE TEMPLE ORDINANCES
BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD
Perhaps the most striking feature inside a Mormon temple is the large baptismal font, large enough to accommodate several people standing waist-deep in water. The font rests on the backs of twelve life-size sculpted oxen in a special room. It is here that baptisms for the dead are performed. The proxies are usually a group of teen-age Mormons who have traveled from their homes in a group for a temple excursion. Dressed in white, they line up to enter the waters one by one to be immersed by the officiators with the short baptismal prayer: "Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you for and in behalf of N. N., who is dead, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen." The name of the dead person is read from a list to the officiator just before the immersion. One proxy may be baptized quickly in succession for ten or fifteen dead people. After the baptisms, two other officiators confirm the newly baptized dead persons as members of the Mormon church and confer upon them the gift of the Holy Ghost, by placing their hands upon the head of each proxy, with a similar short pronouncement. Hundreds of such baptisms and confirmations can be performed in a few hours. It is an efficient, production-line operation.
THE ENDOWMENT
The endowment ceremony, unlike baptisms, takes several hours to complete. Only adult Mormons in very good standing are allowed to participate.
The endowment ceremony is a kind of initiation rite, consisting of dramatization, instruction, passwords, oaths, and examinations. It consists of two parts: a preliminary "washing and anointing" ceremony, and the endowment itself. The first time a Mormon goes through the endowment ceremony, it is for himself (or herself), and he participates in both parts. When being endowed for the dead, it is now customary that one person acts as proxy for the dead person's washing and anointing, but another person, perhaps even on a different day, for the rest of the ceremony. Otherwise, the only difference in the ceremony for the living and for the dead is the insertion of the phrase "for and in behalf of N. N., who is dead" at appropriate times in the proxy ceremony.
The washing and anointing ceremony is an individual ritual, but the second part is a group ritual; that is, a group of Mormons (a "company") goes through the ceremony at the same time together. There may be as many as six or eight "endowment sessions" per day at a busy temple, running from early morning to late in the evening, each with a company of twenty to a hundred people.
Brigham Young, on the occasion of the laying of the cornerstone of the Salt Lake temple, described the importance of the endowment as the key to entrance into the highest degree of heaven:
"Your endowment is to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell." - Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p.315, April 6, 1853
THE ENDOWMENT: THE WASHING AND ANOINTING
Men and women undergo this part of the endowment in separate but identical areas. Male officiators perform the ritual for the men, and female officiators for the women. The ceremony is the same for members of each sex, with the exception of the ordination to the priesthood, mentioned below. Since women cannot hold the Mormon priesthood, that ordination is not performed for the women. The description here uses a male example.
Each participant (called a "patron") goes to a locker room and completely disrobes, removing his street clothes and covering the body with a loose white poncho (called a "shield"), which is open on both sides. Taking a towel and a "sacred garment" (which will be discussed later), he proceeds to any one of a number of small booths, where temple workers ("officiators") are waiting for the individual patrons. Male patrons who are proxies for dead men are first ordained to the Mormon priesthood on behalf of the dead man. The ordination is performed by two temple workers who lay their hands on the patron's head and pronounce a short ordination formula. The patron enters the booth, and receives the washing, which consists of a token wetting of each part of the body by the officiator, reaching underneath the shield, accompanied by a set blessing to the effect that that body part will function properly. The head, eyes, nose, neck, shoulders, arms, loins, legs, feet, etc. are all washed and blessed. The two officiators then place their hands upon the head of the patron and with a short prayer "seal" the washing upon him, thus "cleansing" him from the "sins of this generation."
The anointing follows immediately, and is identical with the washing, except that each body part is "anointed," that is, touched with a small amount of olive oil. The anointing is also sealed upon him.
The officiators then clothe the patron in the "garment of the Holy Priesthood" which the patron has brought. This is a plain white undergarment with four small symbolic marks sewn into it, at the right knee, the navel and each nipple. The patron is instructed that the garment represents the covering which God gave Adam and Eve to clothe their nakedness, and that the patron must wear such a garment at all times from then onward. (Click here for more on the garment). For a photograph of a doll dressed in the garment, with close-ups of the markings, click here. For a photograph of a man and woman wearing only the garments, click here.
At this point the patron is also given a "new name," which will be used as a password later in the ceremony, and which he is told will also be needed at the entrance to heaven. The name is usually a name of some character from the Bible or the Book of Mormon. (Few Mormons are aware that on any given day, every temple patron of the same sex receives the same new name.
UPDATE! (January 2005) In the first major change in the endowment ordinances in fifteen years, church authorities on January 18, 2005, revised the washing and anointing ordinances. Patrons now put on the garment themselves in the locker room, then don a white smock before proceeding to the washing booth. Only the head, hands and feet are exposed. The washing now consists of a single wetting with water of a spot on the forehead, and the anointing is a single dab of oil on the forehead. No other parts of the body are touched by the officiators, as was the case previously. The patron is told that he has been "symbolically" washed and anointed, and that his temple garment is now "authorized."
For a complete text of the ritual in its new version, click here.
The patron then goes back to the locker, removes the poncho, and dresses for the communal part of the endowment in plain white clothing, with the garment underneath. For men: trousers, belt, shirt, necktie, socks, and slippers or moccasins. For women: long-sleeved dress, stockings, and slippers or moccasins.
The patron carries the remaining ritual clothing in a small bag or packet, and proceeds to a waiting area until everyone in the company is ready to move into the large auditorium room where the company will be seated (men on the right side of the room, women on the left) for the start of the session. These clothing articles are: a small green apron, usually embroidered with a leaf motif, the "robe," which is actually just a long, pleated toga-like piece of white cloth to be draped over one shoulder, and the "sash," a narrow piece of white cloth long enough to be wrapped around the waist and tied in a bow at the side. Men also have a white cap, resembling a small chef's hat, and women have a veil which can either hang behind the head or be brought to the front to cover the face.
Since deceased Mormons are buried in their temple clothing, anyone can see the actual clothing at a Mormon funeral or viewing of the deceased. (The cap or veil is usually placed on the deceased's head immediately before the final closing of the coffin.)
THE ENDOWMENT: THE DRAMA, LAWS, AND COVENANTS
The endowment ritual has undergone a number of major revisions in the 150 years since it was first introduced by Joseph Smith. The most drastic revision was in 1990, when major parts of the earlier forms of the endowment were removed, perhaps because even Mormons found them too offensive. The following description is based on the version as this writer experienced it, before the 1990 revisions, with comments about the 1990 revisions.
This article will merely summarize very briefly the essentials of the endowment ceremony. To read the entire liturgy, either in its present version or in older versions, click here for links.
The ritual is a dramatization of the Mormon interpretation of the creation and history of the world, emphasizing the Creation, the Fall of Adam, the expulsion from the Garden, and God's sending to humanity the message of salvation by means of the messengers Peter, James and John. The main characters in this ritual drama are God the Father (Elohim), Jehovah, and Michael (who later appears as Adam), Eve, Lucifer, Peter, James and John. Until 1990 a Christian Minister also appeared in a derogatory role, as a paid servant of Lucifer. Jesus does not appear in the drama, except as Jehovah, one of the creators of the world. No principles of doctrine are presented that an attentive Mormon has not already learned from his pre-endowment studies of Mormonism, other than perhaps the doctrine that his ultimate celestial exaltation will depend on his knowing the signs, tokens (handclasps) and passwords which he will learn during the endowment ritual.
Since the 1960s much of the dramatic part of the presentation has been presented by using motion pictures. In other words, temples nowadays are movie theaters, showing the same film, over and over. Prior to the introduction of the use of film, the dramatization was performed by temple workers. The dramatic presentations were not theatrical, but ritual. No attempt was made at verisimilitude or real acting. All characters wore white suits or dresses (except for Lucifer, who wore a black suit and a Masonic ceremonial apron, and the Christian minister, who wore ordinary street clothes).
In the older temples, when the dramatization was "live," the company moved from room to room, symbolic of their progression in receiving the Mormon gospel. The creation was presented in the Creation Room, the Adam and Eve story in the Garden Room, man's condition after the fall and his temptations by false doctrine in the Lone and Dreary World Room, and, after mankind receives the True Gospel, in the Telestial Room, from which passage through the Veil of the temple (described below) leads to the Celestial Room. Each room in the older temples was decorated with appropriate murals. Each room (except for the Creation Room) also contained a small altar.
In the modern temples the company remains in the same room, which is merely a motion-picture projection room, with an altar.
All altars in the temple are a simple rectangular box, with a low padded step or ledge, for kneeling. The top of the altar, at elbow height for one kneeling at the altar, is also padded.
At appropriate places in the dramatization, the patrons put on part of the ritual clothing over their other clothing. Immediately after the fall, for example, the patrons put on the green apron, representing Adam's attempt to cover his nakedness with fig leaves. Later in the ritual, they add the robe, sash and cap or veil, symbolic of the receiving of the priesthood by mankind. (Ironically, although Mormon women don the "robes of the holy priesthood" during the endowment ritual, women are never ordained to the Mormon priesthood. Most Mormon males over the age of twelve are ordained to the priesthood, but no female has ever been ordained.)
At various points during the course of the dramatization, the patrons are required to stand and covenant to obey five all-inclusive laws. These are the Laws of Obedience, Sacrifice, The Gospel, Chastity, and Consecration.
As an example, here is how the Law of Obedience was presented in the version from the 1980s:
ELOHIM: We will put the sisters under covenant to obey the law of Obedience to their husbands. Sisters, arise. (Female patrons stand as instructed.)
ELOHIM: Each of you bring your right arm to the square. You and each of you solemnly covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar that you will each observe and keep the law of your husbands, and abide by his counsel in righteousness. Each of you bow your head and say "Yes."
WOMEN: Yes.
ELOHIM: That will do.
(The female patrons now resume their seats.)
ELOHIM: Brethren, Arise.
(Male patrons stand as instructed.)
ELOHIM: Each of you bring your right arm to the square. You and each of you solemnly covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar that you will obey the law of God, and keep his commandants. Each of you bow your head and say "yes".
MEN: Yes.
In the 1990 revisions this Law was changed so that the woman is not required to "obey" the husband, but to "obey the Law of the Lord, and to hearken unto the counsel of her husband, as her husband hearkens unto the counsel of the Father."
The Law of Sacrifice is explained as based on the Old and New Testaments. In submitting to this Law, the patrons covenant to "sacrifice all that we possess, even our own lives if necessary, in sustaining and defending the Kingdom of God [i.e., the Mormon church]."
The Law of the Gospel requires the patrons to covenant to obey the Gospel (as taught by the Mormon church) and "to avoid all lightmindedness, loud laughter, evil speaking of the Lord's anointed (i.e., the leaders of the Mormon church), the taking of the name of God in vain, and every other unholy and impure practice."
The Law of Chastity is a covenant to restrict one's sexual relations to the lawful spouse.
The Law of Consecration requires "that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion."
THE ENDOWMENT: TOKENS, SIGNS AND PENALTIES
At various points in the dramatization, in addition to the making of the covenants to keep the various laws, the patrons don the robe, sash and cap/veil - the "robes of the priesthood." The patrons move through the steps pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood wearing the robe on the left shoulder, then move the robe to the right shoulder for the rituals for the Melchizedek (higher) Priesthood. Each priesthood has two "tokens, signs and penalties" (only three penalties were actually stated, and in 1990 even those three were eliminated), which the patrons are given in sequence as part of their initiation. Each token also has a name which must be learned.
The tokens are special handclasps, with one person "giving" the token and the other person "receiving" it. The signs are positions in which the arms and hands must be held. These tokens and signs are methods of identifying oneself as endowed. Although no Mormon would use this means of identifying himself outside the temple, the implication is that one will be asked to show these signs and tokens for admission to the Celestial Kingdom.
The penalties, which were completely deleted from the ceremony in 1990, are stylized indications of various ways of being killed. It was understood that anyone revealing these signs or tokens was expressing willingness to suffer the corresponding penalty and lose his life. As each token and sign is presented to the company, each patron receives the token from an officiator and the company makes the sign (and, formerly, enacted the execution of the penalty) in unison.
FIRST TOKEN OF THE AARONIC PRIESTHOOD:
The First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood is given by clasping the right hands and placing the joint of the thumb directly over the first knuckle of the other person's hand.
The name of this token is the New Name that was received in the washing and anointing ceremony.
The sign is made by bringing the right arm to the square, the palm of the hand to the front, the fingers close together, and the thumb extended.
The execution of the Penalty was represented by placing the right thumb under the left ear, the palm of the hand down, and by drawing the thumb quickly across the throat to the right ear, and dropping the hand to the side.
The officiator in the pre-1990 version, after demonstrating the sign and execution of the penalty, said:
"I will now explain the covenant and obligation of secrecy which are associated with this token, its name, sign and penalty, and which you will be required to take upon yourselves. If I were receiving my own Endowment today, and had been given the name of "John" as my New Name, I would repeat in my mind these words, after making the sign, at the same time representing the execution of the penalty: I, John, covenant that I will never reveal the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, and penalty. Rather than do so, I would suffer my life to be taken."
The Officiator demonstrated the execution of the penalty while saying the last sentence. The company was then instructed to stand, and while making the sign, recite the oath in unison while executing the penalty. The present-day version is similar, but without stating or demonstrating the penalty.
SECOND TOKEN OF THE AARONIC PRIESTHOOD (received with robe on left shoulder):
This Token is given by clasping the right hands and placing the joint of the thumb between the first and second knuckles of the hand.
The name of this token is one's own first given name if going through the temple for one's own endowment, or, if going through for the dead, it is the first given name of the dead person.
The sign is made by bringing the right hand in front, with the hand in cupping shape, the right arm forming a square, and the left arm being raised to the square.
The Execution of the Penalty was represented by placing the right hand on the left breast, drawing the hand quickly across the body, and dropping the hands to the sides. The oath was similar to the previous penalty oath.
FIRST TOKEN OF THE MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD, OR SIGN OF THE NAIL (with the robe on the right shoulder):
This token is received by bringing the right hand into this position: the hand vertical, the fingers close together, and the thumb extended; and the person giving the token placing the tip of the forefinger of his right hand in the center of the palm, and the thumb opposite on the back of the hand of the one receiving it. As indicated by its nickname, it represents the nails in Jesus' palm when he was crucified.
The sign is made by bringing the left hand in front of you with the hand in cupping shape, the left arm forming a square; the right hand is also brought forward, the palm down, the fingers close together, the thumb extended, and the thumb is placed over the left hip. (For a photograph of two Mormon men in their temple robes making the "first sign of the Melchizedek priesthood, click here.)
The penalty was represented by drawing the thumb quickly across the body and dropping the hands to the sides. The oath is similar to the previous oaths.
The name of this token is "the Son", meaning the Son of God.
SECOND TOKEN OF THE MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD, THE PATRIARCHAL GRIP, OR SURE SIGN OF THE NAIL
This token is given by clasping the right hands, interlocking the little fingers, and placing the tip of the forefinger upon the center of the wrist. The thumbs should be parallel with the fingers.
The sign is made by raising both hands high above the head, and while lowering the hands three times repeating aloud the words: "Pay Lay Ale; Pay Lay Ale; Pay Lay Ale." The hands are lowered in three distinct movements, one move for each word. [1] Pay--hands above head, [2] Lay--both arms dropped to the square, [3] Ale--both hands lowered to the height of chest.
The words spoken when giving the sign of this token are said to mean "Oh God, hear the words of my mouth!" Since 1990, the original name has been abandoned in favor of the translation. The reason for the change may be that too many people heard the name as "Pale Ale Ale," and, since alcoholic beverages are strictly forbidden in Mormonism, there was confusion.
The name is not given at the time the token is given, but is withheld until the patron is at the veil, at the very end of the endowment (see below).
No specific penalty was given to accompany this sign, but the obligation of secrecy was said to be the same as for the other signs and tokens which had specifically stated penalties.
THE ENDOWMENT: THE TRUE ORDER OF PRAYER
After the company has received all the signs and tokens of the priesthood, they are instructed in the "true order of prayer." A circle is formed by some members of the company standing around the altar, facing the altar, and alternating by sex if possible. The officiator stands at the altar and leads the circle through all the signs of the priesthood, the last being the sign of the Second Token of the Melchizedek priesthood, the words of which are, "Oh, God! Hear the words of my mouth!"
At this point, the officiator kneels at the altar. The women move their veils so as to cover their faces. The members of the circle join with the Patriarchal Grip, each man with the woman to his left, raising the left arm to the square and resting it on the shoulder or arm of the person to the left. The officiator makes the sign of the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, and, while holding his arms in that position (a shoulder-high elbow rest is conveniently provided for him at the altar, in case he should be inspired by the Spirit to make the prayer overly long), he offers an impromptu prayer. This is the only part of the temple ceremony which is not rigidly according to a script.
As the officiator says each phrase of the prayer, the members of the circle repeat it in unison. The content of the prayer is usually quite ordinary, but always includes prayers for "those people whose names are lying on this altar." This is the temple "prayer list," consisting of the names of the sick, the suffering, the doubting, or others who devout Mormons believe would benefit from the extra strength of a true prayer in the temple. Any Mormon may ask that a particular name be added to the prayer list at any temple. The names, written on individual slips of paper, are enclosed in a white pouch which is placed on the altar before the prayer begins.
THE ENDOWMENT: THE CEREMONY AT THE VEIL OF THE TEMPLE:
The end of the endowment ceremony comes when the veil of the temple is uncovered and each member of the company is presented individually at the veil to be examined and passed through into the Celestial Room, representing the Celestial Kingdom.
The veil is a large white cloth, hanging from the ceiling and reaching to the floor, separating the room where the previous ceremonies have taken place from the Celestial Room. It represents the separation between the mortal state and the heavenly state, and thus "passing through the veil" is meant to be symbolic of leaving this existence and passing into the presence of God, as represented by the Celestial Room. Until the patrons are ready to "be presented at the Veil," the Veil is covered with a heavy drape, on a drawstring, similar to a large window drape.
The Veil is actually not a single piece of cloth, but consists of numerous duplicate sections a few feet wide. This allows numerous patrons to be presented at the veil simultaneously so that the entire company can pass quickly through the Veil.
Each section of the veil has the same symbols cut into it (only larger) as are in the garment worn by each patron. These marks are the Mark of the Square, the Mark of the Compass (one over each nipple in the garment, at shoulder height in the veil), the Navel Mark and the Knee Mark. The former two are simple right angles; the latter two are simple straight slits. Each section of the veil is separated from the next by a small post, from which hangs a small mallet.
Each patron is presented by a temple worker at one of the segments of the veil. Other workers, representing "the Lord," stands unseen on the other side of the veil. The worker standing with the patron taps three times with the mallet, and the following dialogue occurs.
LORD: What is wanted?
WORKER: Adam [Eve], having been true and faithful in all things, desires further light and knowledge, by conversing with the Lord, through the Veil [for and in behalf of N. N., who is dead].
LORD: Present him [her] at the Veil, and his [her] request shall be granted.
(The Lord reaches his hand through the veil and gives the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood through the opening.)
LORD: What is that?
PATRON: The First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood.
LORD: Has it a name?
PATRON: It has.
LORD: Will you give it to me?
PATRON: I will, through the Veil. (The patron gives the New Name).
The Lord continues similarly, through the other tokens, until the last one, for which the patron has not received the name:
(The Lord gives the Second Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood.)
LORD: What is that?
PATRON: The Second Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood, the Patriarchal Grip, or Sure sign of the Nail.
LORD: Has it a name?
PATRON: It has.
LORD: Will you give it to me?
PATRON: I cannot. I have not yet received it. For this purpose I have come to converse with the Lord through the Veil.
LORD: You shall receive it upon the Five Points of Fellowship through the Veil.
The Lord and the patron, still holding the grip, embrace upon the Five points of Fellowship by placing their left arms through the marks of the compass and square, which are cut through the Veil. The patron's left arm goes through the mark of the compass, and the Lord's left arm goes through the mark of the square. The Five Points of Fellowship are: 1) inside of right foot by the side of right foot, 2) knee to knee, 3) breast to breast, 4) hand to back, and 5) mouth to ear.
One of the major changes made in 1990 was the elimination of the "Five Points of Fellowship," probably because many women objected that they felt uncomfortable embracing "The Lord" so intimately.
LORD: This is the name of the Token--"Health in the navel, marrow in the bones, strength in the loins and in the sinews, power in the Priesthood be upon me, and upon my posterity through all generations of time, and throughout all eternity."
(The Lord then asks the patron to give him the name of the token. If the patron has difficulty remembering it correctly, the temple worker will prompt him.)
(The Lord and patron break the ceremonial embrace, and the temple worker gives another three taps with the mallet.)
LORD: What is wanted?
WORKER: Adam, having conversed with the Lord through the Veil, desires now to enter his presence.
LORD: Let him enter.
(The Veil is now parted and the Lord takes the patron by the right hand, and pulls him gently through the Veil into the Celestial Room.)
The endowment ceremony ends for each patron as he or she passes through the veil. If a man and woman are being married that day, the man goes through the veil first, and then assumes the role of the Lord to bring his bride through the veil.
There is no ritual performed in the Celestial room, which is generally a very large and elaborately furnished sitting room, with sofas, chairs, tables, art work, chandeliers and carpeting. Patrons may rest briefly, relax, visit (in subdued voices) with others. Praying is discouraged. Patrons may also go directly to the locker rooms from the Celestial Room and then leave, or they may have scheduled sealings, which are performed in small Sealing Rooms which open off the Celestial Room. If couples are being married, their wedding party gathers in the Celestial Room to wait for a sealing room to become available.
SEALINGS
Mormons believe that the family relationships - between husband and wife and between parent and child - can be made eternal by the authority of the Mormon priesthood. The ceremonies in which this is done are called "sealings."
Young Mormons are taught that their goal in choosing a life's mate should be to select another Mormon who is worthy to be endowed and married in a sealing ceremony in the temple. To marry anyone else, they are taught, would be to sacrifice one's hopes of exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom of heaven, since only those people whose marriages are sealed "for time and all eternity" will be in that highest glory.
Thus, good Mormon couples first get their endowment, and then have their wedding in the temple, in one of the sealing rooms. Since only worthy Mormons can enter the temple, frequently many friends and family members - even parents of the bride and groom - are excluded from witnessing the ceremony, and must wait outside the temple, or in a waiting room at the entrance foyer which is not part of the sacred precincts.
Weddings are scheduled so that a number of them can be performed at the same time, so that sometimes a bride must share her special day with several other brides. If she has not received her own endowment before her wedding day, she and her bridegroom (and their entire wedding party, if worthy) may go through an endowment session before their sealing ceremony. The bride is allowed to wear her special wedding gown during the endowment session, with the apron and other ritual clothing worn over it. Or she may get her own endowment a few days before her wedding day. If the bride and groom have both been previously endowed, then they and their wedding party can proceed directly from the dressing rooms to the sealing room, dressed in the temple clothing.
The actual sealing (wedding) ceremony is very brief. When the wedding party has assembled in the sealing room, the officiator, dressed like all temple officiators in a white suit, instructs the couple to kneel at the altar, facing each other across the altar, and to join hands in the Patriarchal Grip. Simple vows are exchanged, and the officiator pronounces them husband and wife "for time and all eternity." The exchange of rings is optional, and is not part of the ceremony. During the ceremony there is no music, no flowers, no reading of poetry, no "giving the bride away," no photographs.
A Mormon couple which has already been married in a civil ceremony may, after a certain waiting period (designed to discourage such civil ceremonies), go to the temple and have their marriage sealed. Any children born already to them can be brought to the temple and sealed to them as their children. Such children are not required to go through a worthiness interview, but are simply brought to the parents directly in the sealing room, dressed in white, when the sealing is scheduled. Children born to a couple already sealed do not have to go through the ceremony; they are considered to be already sealed to their parents automatically, since they are "born under the Covenant" (referring to the "New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage" as described in the revelation on plural wives and celestial marriage in the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132.
Sealings for the dead are essentially the same ceremony. They are much more perfunctory, of course. Generally a group of Mormons will gather to "do sealings" in one of the sealing rooms. The officiators have long lists of families of the dead, listing the names of the parents and all children. They will ask the appropriate number of males and females to kneel at the altar, and quickly recite the words which seal the family together, calling out the name of each deceased family member, then mark the family sheet as completed, and call another group to kneel at the altar for another family. Dozens of families of the dead can be sealed in just a few hours.
SECOND ANOINTING or SECOND ENDOWMENT
This ordinance is so rare that many good Mormons do not even know that it exists. It is done only by invitation from the president of the church, to one married couple at a time. It is performed in the Holy of Holies room of the temple by one of the apostles of the church. Those who receive this ordinance are guaranteed of their salvation and exaltation in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. The man is anointed as "priest and king" (the wife is anointed "priestess and queen") and their "calling and election [to exaltation] is made sure." Part of the ceremony is performed by the couple in private in their own home, following instructions given during the temple ceremony, and includes the ceremonial washing of feet. One implication of the ceremony is that the recipients will have a personal visitation of Christ. In earlier days many devout Mormons received this ordinance, but since the 1920s it is extremely rare, and probably only given to those in high leadership positions in the church.
For a detailed description of this ceremony, click here. (offsite).
MORMON SCRIPTURAL JUSTIFICATION FOR TEMPLES AND THEIR RITUALS
Mormons claim that their temples are merely a continuation of the ancient Jewish temple, overlooking the obvious fact that the Jewish temple was used for animal sacrifices, presided over by an exclusive, inherited priesthood, and had nothing secret about its rituals.
However, Mormons claim to see their temple rituals justified by the following biblical passages:
Baptism for the dead: 1 Cor 15:29 "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"
New Name: Rev 2:17 "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."
Sealing: Matthew 16:19 (also 18:18): "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven..."
Second Anointing: 2 Peter 1:10-11: "Wherefore . . . brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
PROBLEMS, QUESTIONS, CONSIDERATIONS
Only a few of the most obvious problems can be mentioned here.
Changes in the ordinances. Since first introduced by Joseph Smith in the 1840s, the endowment rituals have undergone numerous changes, many of them being the removal of parts of the ceremony. In the early 20th century the "Oath of Vengeance" was removed. About 1920 the garment was modified. In the late 1930s the wording of the penalties was softened. In the 1960s the endowment was presented using motion pictures. About that time the patrons were allowed to remain partially covered with the shield during the washing and anointing, and patrons were allowed to wear the regular street garment during the ceremony rather than the older temple garment. In 1990 the penalties were completely deleted, the "Five Points of Fellowship" was deleted, the sectarian minister was removed from the drama, the wording of the "Oath of Obedience" was changed for the women. And in 2005 the washing and anointing rituals were made completely "symbolic," with the patron being touched only on the head.
Such changes seem to belie the Mormon claims that the endowment is in the pure and unchanged form in which Joseph Smith is supposed to have received it by divine revelation. In fact, in the words of Mormon leaders, such changes are actually a sign of apostasy:
"The Prophet Joseph Smith taught, 'Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed.'" - Ensign Magazine (official church publication), August 2002, p 22
"Now the purpose in Himself in the winding up scene of the last dispensation is that all things pertaining to that dispensation should be conducted precisely in accordance with the preceding dispensations.... He set the temple ordinances to be the same forever and ever and set Adam to watch over them, to reveal them from heaven to man, or to send angels to reveal them." - Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol.4, p. 208
"As temple work progresses, some members wonder if the ordinances can be changed or adjusted. These ordinances have been provided by revelation, and are in the hands of the First Presidency. Thus, the temple is protected from tampering." - W. Grant Bangerter, executive director of the Temple Department and a member of the First Quorum of Seventy, Deseret News, Church Section, January 16, 1982
"We explained briefly the Apostasy and the Restoration: that there is vast evidence and history of an apostasy from the doctrine taught by Jesus and his Apostles, that the organization of the original Church became corrupted, and sacred ordinances were changed to suit the convenience of men..." - Apostle David B. Haight, “Joseph Smith the Prophet,” Ensign, Nov. 1979, p. 22
Click here (offsite) for an extended discussion of the 2005 changes and how "changing the ordinances" is (by Mormon definition) a sign of fundamental apostasy.
Masonic Influence. Even knowledgeable Mormons admit that the endowment ceremony (especially in its earlier versions) contains many details that are similar to the Masonic initiation rites of Joseph Smith's day. The symbols, oaths, handclasps, and terminology resemble the Masonic ritual in hundreds of ways. Smith's introduction of the endowment ceremony came two months after he had been initiated into Freemasonry. (For links to more information on the Masonic influence, click here.)
Baptism for the dead: The Book of Mormon seems to indicate clearly that after one dies, there is no chance of salvation. Alma 34:34 says (see also 2 Nephi 9:38):
"Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis [death], that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world."
Joseph Smith claimed to have had a revelation in 1836 in which he saw his older brother Alvin, who died in 1823, in the Celestial Kingdom, even though the temple work for the dead had not yet begun. Doctrine and Covenants, Section 137. That revelation also says that those who would have accepted the gospel if they had had a chance to hear it will inherit the Celestial Kingdom automatically. This seems to make the work for the dead unnecessary.
Sealing. There is no biblical reference to sealing except by God (Rom. 4:11, 2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13, 4:30; Rev. 13:16-18). The Book of Mormon also uses "seal" in this sense Mosiah 5:15 (by God) and Alma 34:35 (by the devil). The word translated as "bind" in Matt 16:19 means to "tie up [like a captive]." The Book of Mormon has the same passage, at Helaman 10:7, but changes "bind" to "seal."
Marriage for Eternity. Jesus criticized the Sadducees for asking him, referring to a woman who had had several husbands in this life, which husband she would be married to in heaven. He said that the question was irrelevant, since there is no marriage in heaven. (Matt 22:23-30, Mark 12:18-25, Luke 20:27-36).
Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon was claimed by Joseph Smith to be the "fulness of the Gospel" (D&C 20:9, 135:3, and many others) and yet it contains no mention of anything resembling the modern temple ceremonies or work for the dead.
Secrecy. The Book of Mormon repeatedly condemns "secret combinations," "secret works" and the taking of "oaths." (Mormon 8:27, 40, 2 Nephi 26:22, Hel 6:22, and many others.) Most non-Mormons who have studied the origin of the Book of Mormon have concluded that these passages reflect the strong anti-Masonic sentiments common in New York in the 1820s.
The Mormons claim that the secret temple ceremonies have been taught to the faithful in all dispensations, and were known to the first Christians. However, Jesus insisted, "...in secret have I said nothing." (John 18:20; see also Matt 10:26, Mark 4:22, Luke 8:17, 12:2)
God is not "in the secret chambers" (Matt 24:26). But Mormon temples bear the inscription inside the main door "The Lord is in his holy temple - let all the earth keep silence before him" (Habakkuk 2:20).
Tithing, Worthiness. One of the requirements for a temple recommend is the payment to the church of a full tithe (that is, ten percent of one's income). If one has not paid, one is denied admission to the temple. This seems contrary to the Book of Mormon, Mormon 8:32: "Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be [false] churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins."
Duplication. Apparently the posthumous work for some deceased persons has been done again and again. The well-known Protestant apologist and scholar C. S. Lewis, for example, has been baptized into the Mormon church posthumously five times, has been endowed four times, has been sealed to his parents six times, and sealed to his wife four times (twice under two different names - the Mormons seem to think that Lewis was married to two different women). This is apparently not a unique example.
"Pale Ale" Needless to say, some people have not hesitated to make capital of the similarity in sound between the words "Pay Lay Ale" and "pale ale."
LDS Peas - go back to where you came from. We don't care this much about your fucked up cult religion!
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We come from all over. Sorry that it upsets you so much.
For people who don't care about it, you bring it up alot.
For the record, I do think the LDS threads on 2 peas are annoying.
No, it is wierd that a bunch of men in your church dictate that you wear certain underwear.
Exactly! LOL
I wonder if there's even a Victoria's Secret in Utah.
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In just about every mall.
In our eyes, it's not just a bunch of men, it's God. Since you don't believe that, I get that it's really strange to you.
Don't see how it's your problem though.
okay. that was so not necessary.
Anonymous said...
I would never admit this publically because I'm embarrassed by this. But sometimes I think LDS is a great religion because of all the social clubs they have ,wards, meetings, house visits, etc. But then when I read into what their religion really is, I realize it is a cult and all the social clubs is part of keeping people locked in.
1:36 PM
SO TRUE! It is also a MAJOR business network in Utah. Members prefer to only do business with other Mormons. Let say a Mormon lives between 2 contractors. One is a Mo and one isn't. They will hire the Mo without even thinking of the other neighbor. Regardless of qualification.
A dear friend of mine is an oral surgeon and I am NOT KIDDING he told me that when he would go talk to dentists about referring patients to him, they would straight up ASK if he was a Mo.
He isn't, so they refer to a guy who is a Mo. The Mo has been in trouble (for prescription drug abuse) so many time that the state licensing board pulled his hospital priveleges.
Yet dentists keep right on referring patients to the Mo because the Mo surgeon is "in their ward". How fucked up is that!
"If you are unmarried, you will be encouraged to marry a good Mormon as soon as possible. When you do marry, in a wedding ceremony in the temple, your non-Mormon family members and friends will not be allowed to attend the ceremony, because only "worthy" Mormons are allowed to enter the temple."
Someone should tell KKT to convert to LDS then she'll find herself a husband.
The Mormon missionaries are often charming and enthusiastic. They have an attractive story to tell. At first it sounds wonderful. But remember the old saying, "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!" Be careful not to fall into the trap of believing something simply because you want it to be true. Mormons may tell you that those who criticize the church are lying, misquoting and distorting. If you examine the sources used by the critics, however, you will discover that most of their source material is from official or semi-official Mormon writings. You, too, should examine those sources.
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Wait a minute, don't mormons believe in polygamy?? Do any peas share husbands???
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Why is “recovery from Mormonism” is such a difficult, lengthy process for many people? In the early days of my leaving the church I had a simplified view of recovery – stop attending all Mormon church functions, find some non-Mormon friends, figure out some fun activities to do on Sunday, and generally just start living like a typical non-Mormon.
The problem that Mormonism creates for its members is that it greatly interferes with the normal, healthy maturation and growth process that I described earlier. By providing a complete life for its members, by answering all of life’s questions, the Mormon Church stunts the intellectual and emotional growth of its members. By spoon feeding them all the answers, the church keeps the members in a dependent, child-like state. Instead of becoming healthy, independent adult thinkers, Mormons learn to look to the brethren for all the answers.
Tithing, Worthiness. One of the requirements for a temple recommend is the payment to the church of a full tithe (that is, ten percent of one's income). If one has not paid, one is denied admission to the temple. This seems contrary to the Book of Mormon, Mormon 8:32: "Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be [false] churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins."
That right there folks is what makes it a cult.
Blogger might as well change the site name to "ex-mormon.org part deux" since that is apparently the direction some people want it to take by all the cutting and pasting here. I think you can just link, right?
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"You will be expected to fulfill any work assignment given to you. These assignments may be teaching, record keeping, janitorial work, cannery or farm work, helping in the Sunday nursery - any job that needs to be done. Each task you perform successfully will make you eligible for others, with more responsibility and more demands upon your time. The members who perform these jobs, even those involving sensitive pastoral counseling, receive no formal training whatsoever (there is no paid, trained clergy). You will be told that God has called you to your assignments. Many Mormons find much of their spare time taken up with church work, trying to fulfill the numerous assignments that have been given them"
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yeah, if you agree to do something, people expect you to do it. That's not unique to religion.
You can say no. I have.
My completion of assignments has nothing to do with getting "bigger and better" jobs. I've done everything from pianist, to SS teacher and there is no "ascending order" to the jobs I've had.
As for cannery and farm work, in my experience jobs with the welfare portion of the church (because the products of these things either is distributed as aid to foreign countries or given out to people with financial troubles) has always been on a volunteer basis EXCEPT if a person is not working and they are recieving aid, I have heard that some bishops request that they help out with that kind of assignment. I don't think that's unreasonable.
Bishops don't get "clergy training." That is true. They do get training, though. I will agree that I think there needs to be more in the "sensitive pastoral" area.
As for time commitment, I go on Sunday, and I plan a lesson once a month. I go to a weekly meeting for an hour once a month. I don't really feel taxed or put upon by that.
Discovery
I began studying church history, doctrine and scripture and was shocked at what I discovered.
Anger
Inside, I was mad as hell at Joseph Smith and the leaders of the church for perpetuating the fraud.
Fear
I didn't dare tell anyone what I had learned, not even my wife. I thought doubting could unravel my life.
Closet Doubter
My doubts continued, so I just started playing along even though I had serious doubts.
Depression
I felt trapped. I dreaded church. I didn't know how long I could go on like this.
The Break
We stopped going to church altogether, informed the bishop we wanted "no contact." He agreed.
The Siege
Church members started calling and visiting us. Some were blunt, others were subtle. We started getting upset at all the harassment.
As a Christian, I understand tithing. It is a faith issue, not a salvation issue.
However, this...this is just wrong.
~~
Mormons are required by Commandment of God to pay 10% of all their GROSS income to the LDS church. This includes all income, including, employment, social security, Medicare, foodstamps and trust funds and any other form of income, even including finding money on the ground.
The Church Of Jesus-Christ of Latter-Day Saints brings in an estimated 6.5 to 7.0 billion dollars a year in annual tithing revenues. The Church refuses to disclose to the public or it's members how much money it receives annually and what those funds are used for. Because the LDS Church is a tax-exempt organization, it does not have to publicly disclose it's books.
In 2005 the LDS Church purchased two shopping malls in Downtown Salt Lake City for $500 million dollars. The Church plans to spend $1 billion dollars renovating them. In official statements from LDS Church, the Church claims that not one dollar of member tithing funds went into the deal.
Mormons are required to attend a Tithing Settlement with the Bishop each year. A member is questioned in a one-on-one interview with the Bishop to ensure the member is paying a full 10%. Those members who are not paying a full 10% loose their temple recommends and are prevented from entering the Temple.
Mormons who loose their temple recommends are in serious jeopardy of loosing their Celestial blessings. A Mormon who does not pay tithing cannot enter the temple. If a member cannot get into the temple, the member cannot learn the secret handshake, secret password, secret "new name" and special sealings. Without these, the member will be unable to pass Joseph Smith and the angels who guard the entrance to the Celestial Kingdom.
Mormons are commanded that tithing must come first before anything else. Utah has the highest rate of banrkuptices in the United States. Mormons often are told "I cannot pay my bills until I've paid my tithing." Mormons will even pay their tithing rather than give the money to a relative who is on the verge of eviction. Mormon published magazines (Ensign, New Era) constantly stress that tithing must always be paid.
Mormons are told: "if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing." (Lynn Robbins, General Conference, April 2005).
Mormons who claim that tithing is purely "a personal choice" are deceiving themselves and outright lying.
As for time commitment, I go on Sunday, and I plan a lesson once a month. I go to a weekly meeting for an hour once a month. I don't really feel taxed or put upon by that.
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All peas talk in front of the congregation at your church in place of a minister?
"Until 1990 a Christian Minister also appeared in a derogatory role, as a paid servant of Lucifer."
Holy hell. And they call Christians who think their church is a cult, bigots?
The members who perform these jobs, even those involving sensitive pastoral counseling, receive no formal training whatsoever (there is no paid, trained clergy).
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How many times has Jumperhop complained about her marriage to her bishop and he won't do anything. She's being held hostage in her marriage because of this one bishop. Go to a real marriage counselor!
Ever look at the geneology trees for the LDS families? No blacks represented in 99% of the cases. The Book of Mormon speaks about dark skin.
Mormons are told: "if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing." (Lynn Robbins, General Conference, April 2005).
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The church has an extensive welfare program which sends aid all over the world and also gives food and money to its members
I have heard the quote you are referring to. If you are in that sort of a situation, even if you DON'T pay your tithing, the church helps pay bills and provides for food and clothing. The statement wasn't intended to imply that the church wants you to pay tithing and then starve. Members realize that the help is there if they need it.
We believe in giving back to God a small portion of we have been blessed with. I can see that this seems unreasonable and strange in this day and age where there is just so much to BUY. I do really feel that I have had blessings in my life from following this teaching though.
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Ever look at the geneology trees for the LDS families? No blacks represented in 99% of the cases. The Book of Mormon speaks about dark skin.
_______
And yet they're quick to have Gladys Knight (a convert) represent as one of their black members that they're so proud of. Too bad she doesn't realize what a token she is.
"Until 1990 a Christian Minister also appeared in a derogatory role, as a paid servant of Lucifer."
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I went through the temple before this...and that's news to me.
The church has an extensive welfare program which sends aid all over the world and also gives food and money to its members
***
Yes giving money to poor Venezuelans in turn results in more converts to their church. It's not charity if you have an alterior motive.
"Anonymous said...
Written by an anonymous LDS woman:
It's been over 17 years since I went to the temple for my endowment in 1989. I was 20 years-old and went through the temple the day before I got married. It was the Washington, D.C. temple..............
"
Wow...that was very powerful writing...Thank you for sharing that.
11:17 hit the nail on the head. Meghan believesin her relegion 100%? Than why is she pregnant & not married? That is a big no no.I I know a Morman that drinks? Hello YOUR relegion says not to drink.Hello Didn't Jesus drink.Read the Bible( beware of false prophets**) & think for Yourself is all I'm saying.
Yes giving money to poor Venezuelans in turn results in more converts to their church. It's not charity if you have an alterior motive.
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This has been discussed ad nauseum in another thread.
To sum up:
Many times aid ends up in the hands of the government. Therefore the recipient doesn't even know where it came from.
If the aid is handed out by members of the church, they do not require you to convert to recieve it. Good grief.
Many churches utilize missionaries in their efforts. Have you heard of relief missions? (non-LDS) The homeless that go there get a little religion with their meals. Should they stop their service because they see it as a way to bring those people to God?
Ever recieved those march of dimes stickers in the mail? The ones where they say you don't HAVE to send money for the stickers but you can if you want? Is their cause diminished because they send you those things hoping that you'll donate?
If a person converts because they were given something, they're not going to stay once that is not a factor. That's not the kind of convert any church wants.
The LDS like to say they are the fastest growing church, but if you look at their numbers, that isn't true. They may get a lot of converts, but they don't keep them for long. The numbers are dwindling at a rapid pace.
Thanks MomoPeas, you've killed the fun.
The LDS like to say they are the fastest growing church, but if you look at their numbers, that isn't true. They may get a lot of converts, but they don't keep them for long. The numbers are dwindling at a rapid pace.
_________
Yes they always say we're insulting millions of people, but really a few million is nothing compared to population of earth.
Wait a minute, don't mormons believe in polygamy?? Do any peas share husbands???
Is this true?
The church may not want converts (but it really does) but it does want to improve it's image. It's been trying hard for the past 30 years to shake of the label of "cult."
Unfortunately, it will never shake it off. It's a cult founded by a false prophet and is steeped in bigotry and oppression.
Thanks MomoPeas, you've killed the fun.
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By fun you mean?
What kind of person thinks that anonymously slamming other is fun?
Yes they always say we're insulting millions of people, but really a few million is nothing compared to population of earth.
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Of course THAT makes it ok then.
With the exception of a couple of posts, this thread has been the most civil the blog has ever seen. Some may not like what is being typed, but you can't argue facts.
Wait a minute, don't mormons believe in polygamy?? Do any peas share husbands???
Originally it was encourged by Joseph Smith to have more than one wife.
The church had a "revelation" when the laws changed and it became a crime.
All the oddities aside, they call themselves Christian - but so many of the things they believe and profess go directly against the Bible. They can't (won't) see it.
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I know. Another oddity is them not wearing crosses.
I know. Another oddity is them not wearing crosses.
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This is an interesting statement. Do all other christian religions wear crosses? I didn't know that.
We don't because we focus on the resurrection rather than the crucifiction. I don't really think there's anything "wrong" if a mormon chose to wear one, it's just not something that is important to our beliefs. (wearing one, that is.)
Freemasons got their ceremonies from back in the days of Solomon's Temple. The Masons are a very old organization, so it's not far fetched to think that the LDS Temple ceremony wasn't far from the teaching in Solomon's Temple.
However, I agree that JS got the LDS Temple ceremony parts from the Mason's rituals. I'm a former active member and did plenty of reading on this before going through the temple myself. I loved the temple, but it is a bit presumptious that the church claims JS was inspired and received revelation from God.
Just admit that he used their rituals. No biggie.
There are no crosses on the meeting houses or temples.
Also, the LDS do not believe in the trinity, a cornerstone for Christianity.
In the Catholic faith, the cross holds Jesus. Their crosses deplict the crucification.
In other sects of Christianity, you will see an empty cross, concentrating on His resurrection.
The LDS has no crosses. Not one.
His death for our sins is shown by the cross -- why do the LDS ignore this life changing symbol?
The LDS like to say they are the fastest growing church, but if you look at their numbers, that isn't true. They may get a lot of converts, but they don't keep them for long. The numbers are dwindling at a rapid pace.
I was a role keeper. They include the baptised dead in their church numbers. The church is actually a fraction of it's advertised size.
Just admit that he used their rituals. No biggie.
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I have read this too and it used to bother me. I do think that the rituals are similar because they free masons carried the rituals down from the days of Solomon.
Question:
Why is it so offensive for other religions that the LDS believe in revelation? Since the bible is full of revelation, I've never understood why that is so upsetting to some.
I went through the temple before this...and that's news to me.
____________________________
Actually, there is the guy all dressed in black in the film they show during the involvement. The voice over even says something along the lines that he represents all of man's church's on earth.
What's with all the mormons that hang out on this board? I didn't think you ladies were supposed to gossip or speak ill of others or read bad words and stuff.
I'm not surprised you ladies love the drama.
The biggest thing that I have a hard time with is Mormons calling themselves Christians. They just aren't.
You can't be a Christian and not worship Jesus the Son of God.
The worship a completely different being, one who was the spiritual brother to Lucifer.
The Christian Jesus and the Mormon Jesus are two completely different beings.
The LDS has no crosses. Not one.
His death for our sins is shown by the cross -- why do the LDS ignore this life changing symbol?
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Seeing your explanation helps me understand why this is important to you.
We don't ignore the cross. For us though, the significance of the crucifiction lies in the atonement and resurrection. I personally don't feel that a cross can adequately express those things for me.
Instead of crosses on their temples, they place stars, moons and other symbols for their celestial well being.
Where is the Mormon Holy Land? Provo?
I know the LDS believe something powerful will happen in Missouri.
All that celestial bull shit reminds me of Unarius.
What's with all the mormons that hang out on this board? I didn't think you ladies were supposed to gossip or speak ill of others or read bad words and stuff.
I'm not surprised you ladies love the drama.
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Ok, whatever. If we lived by your definitions, we WOULD all be mobots.
I didn't think I was spreading gossip.
I can't control, nor do I desire to, what language other people use on this board.
So now my being here is a problem for you, eh? So much for that nsbr "I can do whatever the hell I want to" attitude.
I know the LDS believe something powerful will happen in Missouri.
_______________________________
They believe that's where the Garden of Eden is and where Jesus will show up in the second coming. It will be a "safe" zone when all the tribulations start to happen right around the second coming.
The Christian Jesus and the Mormon Jesus are two completely different beings.
_____________________________
LOLOLOLOL
Now your stupidity is showing.
no cross = cult
Think Jehovia's witness,in fact they have lots in common.
The Garden of Eden is in Missourui.
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/gardenofeden.htm
LDS don't wear the cross or recognize the cross because they think it represents Christ's death and is therefore a negative symbol.
You also can't say "bless you" when somebody sneezes. Not everybody has the privilege or ability to "bless" somebody.
The biggest thing that I have a hard time with is Mormons calling themselves Christians. They just aren't.
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Not all Christians believe the same things about Christ or interpret the bible the same way. If they did, why are there so many different religions?
Baptists baptize by immersion, Catholics sprinkle.
Where do you draw the line whose beliefs are acceptable and whose aren't allowed in the Christian fold?
I can only say that I believe in Christ.
I don't believe all the same things about Him that you do. I think it's fairly presumptuous for you to say that your beliefs are so right and mine are so wrong that I can't even be called a Christian.
After all, isn't that kind of attitude one of the major things that makes others upset with some mormons? That "I'm right, your wrong thing?"
The Utah Lighthouse Ministry is found here: http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/gardenofeden
I think they're pretty whacked as well though. It's just going from one extreme to another.
Mignonne reminds me of Marie Osmond.
The church had a "revelation" when the laws changed and it became a crime.
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Yes, and they knew Utah couldn't become a state unless they eighty-sixed the polygamy. That was a big sticking point so there was a magically-timed revelation that eliminated polygamy.
The LDS, by their own ordinances, do not follow His word. They believe in other gods and reject the trinity.
LDS don't wear the cross or recognize the cross because they think it represents Christ's death and is therefore a negative symbol.
You also can't say "bless you" when somebody sneezes. Not everybody has the privilege or ability to "bless" somebody.
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I've never believed that it was a "negative symbol" nor was I taught that. We just don't place as much significance on it as a visual reminder that other religions do.
Your sneeze thing made me laugh. That is one I had never heard and I thought I had just about heard everything that was going around.
Of course we can say "bless you." (Although, my dad always said Gezuhndheit, so that's my default response. ;) )Anyone can ask for blessings for themselves or for others from God.
If you are referring to priesthood blessings, that is a different topic. However, those aren't used for sneezes. :D
Why is it so offensive for other religions that the LDS believe in revelation? Since the bible is full of revelation, I've never understood why that is so upsetting to some.
Well in your church structure, you elect someone who then just by position in your church suddenly starts having revelations.
As Christians we are warned about false Prophets. The prophets of the Bible were not elected church members that suddenly got revelations once elected.
There has not been a Prophet since Jesus. There have been those who are inspired, those who lead and those teach, but there have been no true prophets.
If you valued the Holy Bible over the teachings of the false Prophet Joseph Smith, you would understand that.
But as a Mormon you participate in Magical Thinking, therefore you accept that this could be true. Because your brethren also participate in Magical Thinking you have accepted this as something that really happens.
To a Christians, it's not a whole lot different than believing in fairies and unicorns.
I was a role keeper. They include the baptised dead in their church numbers. The church is actually a fraction of it's advertised size.
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Holy shit! LMAO Well that explains why they baptise the dead, they need their numbers.
This discussion has been really englightening for me on Mormons. I'm glad we have this blog to find out the truth.
So, what are you taught about Kolob these days?
The LDS, by their own ordinances, do not follow His word. They believe in other gods and reject the trinity.
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We worship one and only one God. We believe in his son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
We just don't believe in them the same way you do. We believe they are one in purpose, but not one in being. 3 separate entities. There are biblical references to support this, just as there are for the belief that they are one and the same. Who knows?
There were temples in the old and new testiment days. I don't know but I hope that they ordinances we follow are those of the ancient temples. If the free mason rights came from the temple of Solomon, then there is a precedent for the things that we do in the temple.
I can't prove any of that. I can only go on faith. What makes me happy. Weird things like that. :)
I was a role keeper. They include the baptised dead in their church numbers. The church is actually a fraction of it's advertised size.
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My dh has been a membership clerk. Never EVER heard of this before. Source please?
We don't have "role keepers" btw.
So, what are you taught about Kolob these days?
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We don't really discuss it much. The majority of our lessons and discussions are based on Christ and his atonement.
I don't believe all the same things about Him that you do. I think it's fairly presumptuous for you to say that your beliefs are so right and mine are so wrong that I can't even be called a Christian.
Okay so show me where in the Holy Bible that it says that Jesus is the spiritual brother of Lucifer and then I will accept you as a Christian.
You also do not believe in the Holy Trinity. Without that fundamental belief you are not a Christian.
You just aren't. I know you don't understand that, and I feel for you, I really do.
I was there, I was a Mormon. I understand. And as a former Mormon I call tell you that I was not a Christian when I was Mormon and now that I have left the church and have embraced the Holy Bible as the one and only true work of God, I can tell you now that I am a Christian. Furthermore I am a saved Christian because I have accepted Christ into my heart.
We don't have "role keepers" btw.
I worked in the Temple. Yes you do.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sigh.
This is an argument that can go in circles forever and has been done here to death.
I believe I am a Christian.
You believe I am not.
You have no problems telling me what I believe.
My belief in Christ is so strong that it doesn't matter.
We can't even agree to disagree, since I know this will come up again.
We aren't going to convince one another.
So, what are you taught about Kolob these days?
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We don't really discuss it much. The majority of our lessons and discussions are based on Christ and his atonement.
---
You don't discuss it much? Man, so you really do believe that Kolob is the closest star to the throne of God?
My dh has been a membership clerk. Never EVER heard of this before. Source please?
Source? How can I have a source for my calling? I don't understand what you are asking me to prove.
There ARE role keepers in the Mormon church.
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please give us a new thread and conversation starter...it's getting really old
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We don't have "role keepers" btw.
I worked in the Temple. Yes you do.
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I thought you were referring to membership clerks. I am unfamiliar with the term you used.
I won't argue the point with you simply because I don't know. I'm gonna have to ask though. ;)
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*****BLOGGER*****
please give us a new thread and conversation starter...it's getting really old
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*****BLOGGER*****
please give us a new thread and conversation starter...it's getting really old
*****BLOGGER*****
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*****BLOGGER*****
please give us a new thread and conversation starter...it's getting really old
*****BLOGGER*****
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*****BLOGGER*****
please give us a new thread and conversation starter...it's getting really old
*****BLOGGER*****
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Spammer, if you don't want to read this subject matter, visit another blog entry.
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